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HomeMy WebLinkAboutKazi s Hookah Lounge Hearing 09-25-2018 BEFORE THE HEARING EXAMINER OF c�������� THE CITY OF RENTON LITIGATION SUPPORT COURT REPORTING LEGAL V[DEOGRAPHY VIDEOCONFERENC[NG FILE NUMBER: BL041328 TRIAL PRESENTAT[ON IN RE : KAZI ' S HOOKAH LOUNGE MOCK JURY SERVICES BUSINESS OWNER: SHADIKA KAZI LEGAL TRANSCRIPTION COPYWG AND SCANNING LANGUAGE INTERPRETERS \.. � #�� �'-�l�i � � � I; �� ���� ��P�� ; � � �: ��� '��; ' T; �� � ;�,,,� ���.� _ �, ;_�,, ��z�._� _ , �� r f �ti, A1 . :I� -�, �G � .. �+'� „7, �'A.'. ` ,'l, _ ! _. f�.� . �� � R;.�/. � W'. -���J,�-lt PIONEE�'COURTHuvat �\�_� r -- _ . . "��'� _r'1. F � _ __ � � r ' � f, �j�;iuT����� - - HEARING � � �� . : i'�. � , HELD ON TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 25 , 2018 � • � � � 1 : 34 P .M. BEFORE � � PHIL OLBRECHTS HEARING EXAMINER CITY OF RENTON - CITY HALL : , , 1055 SOUTH GRADY WAY RENTON, WASHINGTON 98057 Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn#28884-1 Page 2 1 APPEARANCES 2 3 APPEARING ON BEHALF OF THE CITY OF RENTON: 4 LESLIE CLARK, ESQUIRE 5 Renton City Attorney ' s Office 6 1055 S . Grady Way 7 Renton, WA 98057 8 (425) 430-6480 9 (425) 430-6498 (Fax) 10 11 APPEARING ON BEHALF OF THE BUSINESS OWNER: 12 SHADIKA KAZI 13 PRO SE 14 111 Airport Way 15 Renton, WA 98057 16 (206) 518-8320 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 N A E G E L I y`'��ftR�''� ' (800) 528-3335 ���c DEPOSITION AND TRIAL � �"A��,`'r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn#28884-1 Page 3 1 INDEX 2 Page 3 SHADIK KAZI 4 Direct (By Ms . Clark) 21 5 Direct (By Ms . Clark) 122 6 Direct (By Hearing Examiner) 123 7 Direct (By Ms . Clark) 130 8 9 LINDA WELTON 10 Direct (By Ms . Clark) 43 11 12 DONNA LOCHER 13 Direct (By Ms . Clark) 52 14 Direct (By Ms . Kazi) 53 15 16 SCOTT NEAL 17 Direct (By Ms . Clark) 54 18 Direct (By Ms . Kazi) 66 19 20 FELS PAJIMULA 21 Direct (By Ms . Clark) 74 22 Direct (By Hearing Examiner) 88 23 Direct (By Ms . Kazi) 89 24 25 N A E G E L I y`'��ftR�''� '' (800) 528-3335 ���c DEPOSITION AND TRIAL � �"A��`'r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn#28884-1 Page 4 1 EXHIBITS 2 CITY ' S EXHIBITS : 3 No . Description Offered Admitted 4 5 Exhibits 1-12 7 7 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 N A E G E L I y`'��ftR�''� '' (800) 528-3335 ���c DEPOSITION AND TRIAL � �"A��`'r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn#28884-1 Page 5 1 EXHIBITS CONTINUED 2 APPELLANT ' S EXHIBITS : 3 No . Description Offered Admitted 4 5 A-1 Letter 11 18 6 A-2 Letter 11 18 7 A-3 Letter 11 18 8 A-4 Letter 12 18 9 A-5 Letter 12 18 10 A-6 Email 12 18 11 A-7 Photo 12 18 12 A-8 Document 12 18 13 A-9 Document 13 18 14 A-10 Document 13 18 15 A-11 Document 13 18 16 A-12 Document 13 18 17 A-13 Yelp Reviews 14 18 18 A-14 Document 14 18 19 A-15 Document 14 18 20 A-16 Document 14 18 21 A-17 Advertisement 14 18 22 A-18 Membership Application 15 18 23 A-18 (SIC) Videos 132 N/A 24 25 N A E G E L I y`'��ftR�''� '' (800) 528-3335 ���c DEPOSITION AND TRIAL � �"A��`'r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn#28884-1 Page 6 1 HEARING 2 HELD ON 3 TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 25 , 2018 4 1 : 34 P.M. 5 BEFORE 6 PHIL OLBRECHTS 7 HEARING EXAMINER 8 9 HEARING EXAMINER: All right, let ' s get 10 started. It ' s about 1 : 30 p .m. , Renton City Council 11 Meeting Chambers, September 25th, 2018 . I 'm Phil 12 Olbrechts, hearing examiner . We have an appeal of a 13 denial of a business license renewal application, 14 BL041328 . The format for today' s hearing appeal 15 will be the City will present its case as to why it 16 decided to deny the renewal application . They' ll be 17 allowed to present witnesses . Any witness testimony 18 shall be subject to cross examination . 19 Ms . Kazi, you can ask questions of all the 20 witnesses the City presents . Once the City' s done 21 presenting its case, then Ms . Kazi you can present 22 yours and also present witnesses, and your witnesses 23 too will be subject to cross examination . 24 And then the City has the final right of 25 rebuttal . They get to respond to any evidence you N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn#28884-1 Page 7 1 presented, and I have a couple weeks to issue a 2 decision . So, any questions about the format or how 3 to do this? 4 Okay, any preliminary matters the parties 5 wanted to bring up before we get started? 6 Okay, Ms . Clark? 7 MS . CLARK: (Indiscernible) , Mr . Hearing 8 Examiner, Leslie Clark with the City Attorney' s 9 Office for the City of Renton . Both parties 10 admitted exhibits or submitted exhibits and so I ' d 11 like to move to admit the City' s Exhibits 1 through 12 12 . 13 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay. 14 MS . CLARK: And I wanted to state that the 15 City has no objection to appellant ' s exhibits, 16 however, I wanted to talk about how to identify them 17 for record purposes since the City did not receive 18 them numbered. 19 HEARING EXAMINER: Oh, okay, all right . 20 So the City has identified 12 exhibits in an exhibit 21 list that was submitted, oh, and that includes your 22 supplementary list, right? Okay, yeah . 23 So, Ms . Kazi, do you have any objections 24 to the entry of the City' s 12 exhibits? 25 MS . KAZI : I 'm not sure exactly which N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn#28884-1 Page 8 1 exhibit was not numbered. 2 HEARING EXAMINER: No, we ' re talking about 3 the City' s right now. We ' ll get to yours in a -- 4 MS . KAZI : Oh, no . I don ' t have any 5 objections . 6 HEARING EXAMINER: All right, so I ' ll 7 admit the City' s Exhibits 1 through 12 . 8 (WHEREUPON, documents marked for 9 identification as City' s Exhibits 1-12 were received 10 into evidence . ) 11 HEARING EXAMINER: And now Ms . Kazi had 12 some exhibits as well . I don ' t know if I have a 13 copy up here of those . Is that something recently, 14 Ms . Kazi? Did you bring those exhibits recently? 15 MS . KAZI : I send the exhibit in July. 16 HEARING EXAMINER: Oh, okay . You did send 17 them in July. All right, okay. I 'm just trying to 18 find them here . 19 MS . KAZI : I do have some of the stuff . 20 HEARING EXAMINER: All right, hold on a 21 second. 22 Yeah, there doesn ' t appear to be any 23 exhibits in the clerk' s file . Did you just send 24 your exhibits to Ms . Clark, Ms . Kazi? 25 MS . KAZI : Yes . N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn#28884-1 Page 9 1 HEARING EXAMINER: Oh, okay, all right . 2 Do you have an extra copy of those with you today 3 that I could have? 4 MS . KAZI : I do have it someplace . 5 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, yeah . If you 6 could give me a set, that would be really helpful . 7 If that ' s your only copy you can keep them 8 for now, but okay, all right . 9 MS . KAZI : I can only give you certain 10 (indiscernible) copy. The rest of it I probably 11 need it and I can give it to you when I 12 (indiscernible) . 13 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay. Well, yeah . 14 Actually, why don ' t -- can you make copies of -- 15 yeah, we ' ll make copies right now of all your 16 exhibits and then we ' ll take a little break to do 17 that . I think it ' ll be a lot easier to get through 18 that way. 19 MS . CLARK: And the City would request a 20 copy as well since there are many pages submitted 21 and it looks like we ' re reduced down to just a few. 22 I ' d like a copy of (indiscernible) . 23 HEARING EXAMINER: Oh, okay . All right, 24 sure . Okay, so we ' ll -- how much time do you need, 25 Sandy, do you think? N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 10 1 THE CLERK: Five . 2 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, all right . So 3 we ' ll take a little five to ten-minute recess to get 4 those copies done . 5 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken. ) 6 HEARING EXAMINER: A-1 will be first page, 7 the letter to Dear Members of Renton City Council . 8 (WHEREUPON, Kazi letter requesting 9 business license application was marked Exhibit A-1 10 for identification. ) 11 HEARING EXAMINER: A-2 will be a letter to 12 Ms . Iwen Wang from Ms . Kazi . 13 (WHEREUPON, a letter to Ms . Iwen Wang was 14 marked Exhibit A-2 for identification. ) 15 HEARING EXAMINER: A-3 is a letter to 16 Donna Locher from Ms . Kazi . 17 (WHEREUPON, a letter to Donna Locher was 18 marked Exhibit A-3 for identification. ) 19 HEARING EXAMINER: A-4 is a letter date 20 stamped May lOth, 2018, Dear City of Renton 21 Administrative Services Administrator, subject, 22 Appealing for obtaining a renewal license for Hookah 23 Lounge . 24 (WHEREUPON, a letter to Renton 25 Administrative Services Administrator re "Appealing N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 11 1 for obtaining a renewal license for Hookah Lounge" 2 was marked Exhibit A-4 for identification. ) 3 HEARING EXAMINER: A-5 is a letter date 4 stamped May 23rd, 2018 to Dear City of Renton 5 Administrative Services Administrator and City 6 Hearing Examiner . 7 (WHEREUPON, a letter to City of Renton 8 Administrative Services and City Hearing Examiner 9 was marked Exhibit A-5 for identification. ) 10 HEARING EXAMINER: A-6, I can ' t exactly 11 tell what it is . It just says, has Google up on the 12 top left hand corner and that is composed of four 13 pages like that . 14 (WHEREUPON, email to KC Public Health was 15 marked Exhibit A-6 for identification. ) 16 HEARING EXAMINER: A-7 is a photograph of 17 Venus & Mars Lounge . 18 (WHEREUPON, a photo of Venus & Mars Lounge 19 was marked Exhibit A-7 for identification. ) 20 HEARING EXAMINER: A-8 is a Renton License 21 Renewal Notice, December 28th, 2017 . 22 (WHEREUPON, a document titled "Renton 23 License Renewal Notice" was marked Exhibit A-8 for 24 identification. ) 25 HEARING EXAMINER: A-9, something from a N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 12 1 website called Fivestars showing total visits, total 2 members of Kazi ' s Hookah Lounge and that ' s composed 3 of five pages . I 'm sorry, that should be, yeah, A- 4 9 . Okay. 5 (WHEREUPON, a document, Fivestars Member 6 Data, was marked Exhibit A-9 for identification. ) 7 HEARING EXAMINER: Then A-10 is another 8 Fivestars web page with a bunch of names blacked 9 out . It looks like a membership list . It also is 10 five pages . 11 (WHEREUPON, a document, Fivestars Member 12 List, was marked Exhibit A-10 for identification. ) 13 HEARING EXAMINER: A-11 is it looks like a 14 business license application form filled out by Ms . 15 Kazi dated April 20th, 2015 and that ' s two pages . 16 (WHEREUPON, a document, "Kazi Hookah 17 Lounge" business license application, was marked 18 Exhibit A-11 for identification. ) 19 HEARING EXAMINER: A-12 is a business 20 license to Kazi ' s Hookah Lounge dated April 30th, 21 2017, BL038974 . 22 (WHEREUPON, a document, Kazi ' s Hookah 23 Lounge business license, BL038904 , was marked 24 Exhibit A-12 for identification. ) 25 HEARING EXAMINER: A-13 appear to be Yelp N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 13 1 reviews or some kind of reviews . That ' s two pages . 2 (WHERUPON, Yelp reviews were marked 3 Exhibit A-13 for identification. ) 4 HEARING EXAMINER: A-14 is a membership 5 form. 6 (WHEREUPON, a document titled "Membership 7 Agreement" was marked Exhibit A-14 for 8 identification. ) 9 HEARING EXAMINER: A-15 is a document 10 entitled "Business Licensing and Taxes . " 11 (WHERUPON, a document titled "Business 12 Licensing and Taxes" was marked Exhibit A-15 for 13 identification. ) 14 HEARING EXAMINER: A-16 is a document with 15 a header "KGP Investment Group LLC . " 16 (WHEREUPON, a document titled "KGP 17 Investment Group LLC" was marked Exhibit A-16 for 18 identification. ) 19 HEARING EXAMINER: And finally, A-17 is 20 some kind of an image . It says, "Saturday May 19th, 21 Seattle Hookah Lounge . " 22 (WHEREUPON, an advertisement for Seattle 23 Hookah Lounge was marked Exhibit A-17 for 24 identification. ) 25 HEARING EXAMINER: All right, Ms . Kazi, N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 14 1 are these all your documents? 2 MS . KAZI : I have some more that I 3 actually emailed to Ms . Leslie (indiscernible) 4 membership application forms that people actually 5 signed and put their name and phone number 6 (indiscernible) . 7 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay. You 've done -- 8 do you know how many pages that was? 9 MS . KAZI : I believe there was normally 10 40, 50 or more, so . 11 HEARING EXAMINER: Oh, okay . Well, I ' ll 12 make A-18 the membership applications emailed to Ms . 13 Clark. 14 (WHEREUPON, membership applications marked 15 Exhibit A-18 for identification. ) 16 HEARING EXAMINER: Do you remember what 17 the date was of the email, Ms . Kazi? 18 MS . KAZI : Yes, I do . And I believe it 19 was July 20, July 18 or 17, and I also submitted a 20 form where I databased from my register where all 21 the membership were to be, was collected, dated with 22 number (indiscernible) since 2015 to 2017 current 23 and that was probably (indiscernible) 8, 000, 24 probably 6, 000 for in between those two years . 25 HEARING EXAMINER: So A-18 is your N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 15 1 membership forms that you emailed to Ms . Clark, 40 2 to 50 pages . And I didn ' t quite get what the last 3 thing was . What was the date on it? 4 MS . KAZI : So there ' s -- 5 HEARING EXAMINER: Pardon? 6 MS . KAZI : -- two things that ' s not here . 7 First thing is the application form that you 8 basically apply for . 9 HEARING EXAMINER: Those are the 40, 50 10 pages you ' re talking about? 11 MS . KAZI : Yes . Yes, more of them. 12 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, all right . 13 That ' s A-18 . 14 MS . KAZI : And the other one is the 15 database, it ' s the electronic database that I used 16 to do instead of having the application form. 17 HEARING EXAMINER: Ah . 18 MS . KAZI : We used to use it on our 19 register system and that was created since the first 20 day start the (indiscernible) business . 21 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay. 22 MS . KAZI : And that was from the beginning 23 of 2015 and it was probably 8 , 000 or more people in 24 that (indiscernible) . 25 HEARING EXAMINER: Ah, you sent that N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 16 1 entire database to Ms . Clark? 2 MS . KAZI : Yes . 3 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, all right . 4 Ms . Clark, do you have those documents? 5 MS . CLARK: I certainly don ' t have them 6 printed. 7 HEARING EXAMINER: Oh, yeah . 8 MS . CLARK: But did receive them, yes . 9 (indiscernible) . 10 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, you got them. 11 MS . CLARK: Don ' t have a problem with them 12 being admitted. I do have a problem if we ' re 13 talking about details about what ' s in them if none 14 of us is looking at them. 15 HEARING EXAMINER: Hm. 16 MS . CLARK: But we ' re fine to take the 17 representation from appellant that there are 18 approximately 6, 000 members or something like that . 19 That ' s not an issue . 20 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay. 21 MS . CLARK: I ' d be looking at, you know if 22 there ' s a representation about what line 23 says or 23 doesn ' t say that is a concern because none of us 24 would be looking at it . 25 HEARING EXAMINER: All right, hm. N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 17 1 MS . KAZI : I 'm not sure . So what we have 2 in the database, the person first and last name, 3 phone number, when they become a member -- 4 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay. 5 MS . KAZI : And so date of their membership 6 was created. And what else -- so first and last 7 name -- 8 HEARING EXAMINER: Yeah. 9 MS . KAZI : -- a phone number for the 10 customer and the date customer created membership . 11 So sometimes you can even find on the database when 12 they paid for the membership . 13 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, okay. 14 MS . KAZI : Because it is a computer 15 (indiscernible) . It ' s called Clover System, so what 16 it does is it generates payments and submission of 17 memberships as well and how the money was collected. 18 HEARING EXAMINER: All right, okay. 19 Well, I ' ll -- yeah, I ' ll admit those two 20 documents , and obviously if a reference is made to 21 some detail in there and we need some time to go 22 back and look at it then the opportunity will be 23 given to the parties to dig it up and pull it out if 24 necessary . 25 All right, so I ' ll admit them, the N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 18 1 documents A-1 through A-19 . 2 (WHEREUPON, the documents marked Exhibits 3 A-1 through A-19 for identification were received 4 into evidence . ) 5 HEARING EXAMINER: Anything else before we 6 jump into the hearing itself? 7 MS . CLARK: I have one (indiscernible) 8 exhibits and one final preliminary request . 9 HEARING EXAMINER: All right . 10 MS . CLARK: So the (indiscernible) in the 11 exhibits is that I wasn ' t able to identify all the 12 duplicates since we ' re, you know, just looking 13 through things quickly, but I note that there are 14 some duplicates . So, and I did notice two 15 specifically, that A-4 appears to me to be identical 16 to City of Renton-5 . 17 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay. 18 MS . CLARK: And A-5 appears to be 19 identical to City of Renton-7 . There are a couple 20 others that are duplicates, but I just wanted to 21 point that out because it may be that the City 22 refers to a City exhibit and Ms . Kazi refers to an 23 Appellant exhibit and we might in fact be talking 24 about the same document . 25 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, all right . Yeah, N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 19 1 that ' s fine . 2 MS . CLARK: And the final preliminary 3 matter that I wanted to address is that the City 4 would respectfully request a few minutes following 5 the giving of all testimony and evidence for closing 6 argument . 7 HEARING EXAMINER: Oh, okay . Sure . So 8 okay, so the City will go first then Appellant 9 second. City gets rebuttal and then we ' ll have 10 closing arguments where Ms . Kazi will go first, City 11 will go last . 12 All right, and then of course all 13 testimony has to be taken under oath. I ' ll 14 administer the oath as per witness basis when they 15 come up to testify. 16 All right, I ' ll let the City get started 17 then . 18 MS . CLARK: Okay. Thank you, Mr . Hearing 19 Examiner . As our first witness, we would like to 20 call Ms . Shadika Kazi . 21 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay. 22 MS . KAZI : Do I stand up? 23 HEARING EXAMINER: Yeah. Raise your right 24 hand. Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth and 25 nothing but the truth in this proceeding? N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 20 1 THE WITNESS : Yes . 2 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, great . 3 SHADIKA KAZI, having been first duly sworn, was 4 examined, and testified as follows : 5 EXAMINATION 6 BY MS . CLARK: 7 Q. Thank you, Ms . Kazi . And the City just 8 has a few questions for you to put some information 9 on the record. So, first of all , would you identify 10 the name of your business and its , your location 11 being the subject of this hearing today? 12 A. Sure . The name of the business, Kazi ' s 13 Hookah Lounge and the location is 111 Airport Way, 14 Renton, Washington, 98057 . And it is Kazi ' s Hookah 15 Lounge, used to be, and it became Kazi ' s Hookah 16 Lounge LLC in 2017 . So during 2015 to 2017 in 17 February we used to call Kazi ' s Hookah Lounge . In 18 March 2017 it became Kazi ' s Hookah Lounge LLC . 19 Q. What is the name of your partner? 20 A. Victor Cousarez . 21 Q. And he became a partner in approximately 22 when? 23 A. April . 24 Q. Of 2017? 25 A. I believe so, yes . I 'm not sure exact N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 21 1 date, but that ' s what I 'm thinking. But I did put 2 him in the system (indiscernible) . 3 Q. Okay. So I wanted to confirm for you that 4 you' re the author of several exhibits that are at 5 issue in the hearing. Do you have in front of you a 6 set of the City' s exhibits? 7 A. I do not have it, okay. (Indiscernible) . 8 MS . CLARK: Let me just pause a moment 9 while I provide you with a copy. 10 THE WITNESS : I printed out but just what 11 I (indiscernible) . 12 Q. Okay. Ms . Kazi , I 'm handing you a copy of 13 the City' s exhibits marked COR-1 through COR-12 . 14 Would you please turn to Exhibit 1 , COR-1 , and look 15 for a business license application that is attached 16 to that document. 17 A. Yes . 18 Q. And I think this may actually be one of 19 our duplicates . Do you recognize this business 20 license application as a document that you had 21 filled out? 22 A. Yes . 23 Q. And then if you turn when, or 24 approximately two pages there ' s a letter dated, or 25 excuse me, it does not have a date, entitled "Dear N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 22 1 Members of Renton City Hall?" 2 A. Yes . 3 Q. Are you the author of that letter? 4 A. Yes . 5 Q. Great. Okay, if you would now turn to 6 Exhibit 5 . That' ll be the number of the exhibit 7 later in your packet. 8 A. Exhibit 5, (indiscernible) ? 9 Q. Yes , COR-5, and that was under the City of 10 Renton (indiscernible) . 11 HEARING EXAMINER: I don ' t think I have a 12 copy of the primary exhibit packet . I have the 13 supplemental one but not the primary packet . It ' s 14 not in the clerk file . Do you have -- 15 THE WITNESS : (Indiscernible) . 16 HEARING EXAMINER: Yeah, do you have an 17 extra packet? 18 MS . CLARK: I do . 19 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, that -- yeah, it 20 would be helpful to follow. Like I said, I don ' t 21 need the supplemental ones . That is included in the 22 clerk file, but not the originals . 23 MS . CLARK: So, Mr . Hearing Examiner, you 24 already have 9 through 12? 25 HEARING EXAMINER: Yes . Yeah, I do have N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 23 1 that . (Indiscernible) was that email by the City 2 Attorney' s Office? I might have it in my emails . 3 MS . CLARK: It was, but I have an 4 additional copy. 5 HEARING EXAMINER: Oh, yeah . That would 6 be easier, yeah. 7 Great, thanks . 8 MS . CLARK: I apologize . I think I 9 printed two pages . 10 HEARING EXAMINER: Oh, that ' s fine . 11 BY MS . CLARK: 12 Q. Okay, Ms . Kazi, we were at Exhibit 5 . Are 13 you the author of that document? 14 A. Definitely, yes . 15 Q. Okay. And then one more similar question, 16 if you look at Exhibit Number 8 , and are you the 17 author of that document? 18 A. It looks different but that ' s definitely 19 (indiscernible) just the way (indiscernible) . 20 Q. Yeah. Okay, so thank you for that. So if 21 I refer to the business as simply Kazi ' s is that 22 sufficient? 23 A. Yes . 24 Q. So is Kazi ' s still operating? 25 A. Yes . N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 24 1 Q. Is it a for-profit business? 2 A. What do you mean for-profit? 3 Q. Are you a not-for-profit organization? 4 A. Not for profit? 5 Q. Is the goal of the business to earn money 6 for a profit? 7 A. Yes . 8 Q. How many members do you have in 9 approximation? 10 A. So two members in total for Kazi ' s Lounge 11 (indiscernible) . 12 Q. And those are the business members? 13 A. Yes . 14 Q. How about members who attend, who frequent 15 the business? 16 A. Well, you mean just (indiscernible) 17 customer members? 18 Q. Yes . 19 A. How many we currently have? So I think, I 20 believe it ' s set around Fivestars showing the 21 current total number of the members (indiscernible) 22 since 2017 July. So it shows 18, is it 18 members, 23 total members, 1, 864 , since I think it was 24 (indiscernible) account, we start using the other 25 system and replaced and we changed the system to one N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 25 1 a little bit more effective so we can count the 2 members so we don ' t go over more than what is 3 supposed to be the limit . By the Health Department, 4 they wanted us to be under 2, 500 members per 5 quarter . In three months we can have no more than 6 2, 500 and I show to you the record from every July. 7 So it really doesn ' t (indiscernible) three 8 months and it shows 1, 865 . 9 Q. So when you say there ' s a limit of 2 ,500 , 10 how does that work? What' s your understanding of 11 that? 12 A. The limit actually that this is something 13 the Health Department can explain a little bit more . 14 They want to create this way where, in my 15 understanding, they wanted to have like a very 16 private lounge where there ' s a limited number of 17 people, doesn ' t go too crazy or not just everybody ' s 18 cannot get access to it . 19 This is not like a (indiscernible) , you 20 know, where you actually have, do have a referral to 21 go there, but this is how the standard Health 22 Department wanted us to do for the hookah lounge 23 because there was many violence, many problems 24 within the city with many hookah lounges where 25 there ' s a lot of (indiscernible) calls, people N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 26 1 shooting or, you know, dying or things like that 2 happen in Seattle a lot . 3 And because of that he wanted to create 4 something very small gathering place where it ' s a 5 limited number and people go there and to have a 6 record of people who goes there and pretty much 7 being under . This is something they came up very 8 all of a sudden because of during the mayor, Seattle 9 mayor, there was a discussion of whether or not they 10 wanted to allow hookah lounges in Seattle . 11 And the mayor of Seattle listed out all 12 the hookah lounges that was in violation, all of the 13 11 hookah lounges that make most of the calls to for 14 calling for 9-1-1 and they listed out all those 11 15 hookah lounges . They wanted to go against them and 16 they wanted to shut them down . 17 Because during 2015, one of the leader or, 18 you know, somebody who was very respected in the 19 community died in 2015, and I believe he was Chinese 20 and the Chinese community they were very affected by 21 that . And they complained and they were to go fight 22 for him and wanted to show that this hookah lounges 23 are coming to that . There ' s too much crime, 24 violence, people are (indiscernible) from the 25 community . N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 27 1 And that ' s when the City or mayor decided 2 okay, we will take a chance because these other 3 things happening and has been happening, there ' s too 4 many violence everywhere, we can (indiscernible) 5 hookah lounges . 6 And so they went ahead and did it and then 7 it took awhile to come up with the position and then 8 the City, the mayor overruled it . So we already 9 know what they came up with and (indiscernible) can 10 discuss about it later . And there was a settlement 11 between the Health Department and with the all the 12 11 hookah lounges and they came up with this package 13 for those hookah lounges to remain in business they 14 have to sign this agreement . 15 The agreement is that you have to be under 16 2, 500 . It ' s going to be very -- application form, 17 you know, records and everything to remain in 18 business . So although the, you know, 19 (indiscernible) that they have to follow this rule, 20 but they had to (indiscernible) something in order 21 to follow it because of all these things happening. 22 And, you know, the City had given them chances and 23 the Health Department giving them chances, so they 24 had to do something about it so it doesn ' t happen . 25 Q. And so the discussion that you were giving N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 28 1 there was primarily, I want to clarify, about hookah 2 lounges in Seattle; is that right? 3 A. Yes . 4 Q. So are you or is Kazi ' s subject to a 5 settlement agreement? 6 A. No . 7 Q. Okay. So for the 2 ,500 members, explain 8 what steps you' re taking to comply with your 9 understanding of that new rule . 10 A. Yes . So the new rule came and obviously I 11 had my (indiscernible) . Mr . (indiscernible) , he 12 helped me to understand the new package . And he 13 asked me if I have any question, do I understand the 14 package . We went over it . Then he came back. I 15 did a membership application for him. He looked it 16 over and he did not like it . 17 So he told me, you know, this doesn ' t 18 explain anything about the rules of the lounge, you 19 know, the inquirements (sic) and everything . It 20 needs to be kind of like an application form. So I 21 said, "Okay, no problem, just give me some time to 22 create one . " 23 So I came up with -- slowly I came up with 24 another form which is this right here and you have 25 it . So it ' s finished and he read over it, he liked N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 29 1 it and he took a picture of one with me to show to 2 his boss or I 'm not sure who, but (indiscernible) 3 everybody who ever had a question . 4 And it shows (indiscernible) takes 24 5 hours processing which is a long time for somebody 6 who ' s a smoker and wants to smoke . And then, you 7 know, we have our general rules . We want to make 8 sure the outside of our property is clean, nobody ' s 9 trashing. We want to make sure that, you know, our 10 neighbors are not affected by all this trash and 11 keeping it safe and no gathering. 12 So we listed out everything. We even 13 listed out things that you have to have quiet 14 environments (indiscernible) outside, no alcohol, 15 marijuana, these kinds of things are allowed 16 outside, inside of this lounge . Nobody can actually 17 eat outside of the property anytime unless you want 18 to take a cigarette break or five minutes, less . 19 That ' s the only exceptions . So either you stay in 20 or you leave . 21 And then it also explains about, you know, 22 smoking can cause cancer or serious health problems, 23 whichever . You know, that ' s something that we even 24 had it on our menu . So when you order a flavor it 25 says on down there, you know, this is what it is N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 30 1 smoking can cause . People read it, they just laugh 2 about it and okay, you know. 3 But this is something we wanted to let 4 people -- that this is one way or another you should 5 notice . So these are the things we have it on the 6 spot . 7 Q. And you indicated that you' re the author 8 of this form? 9 A. Yes . 10 Q. When did you create it? 11 A. I don ' t remember exact date or month, but 12 I 'm sure I created it a long time ago . 13 Q. The date might be somewhat important, can 14 you approximate? It doesn' t have to be exact. 15 A. Yeah, I think in probably 2016 . That ' s 16 what I think, somewhere in November 2016 . 17 Q. And do you recall when you showed it to -- 18 and you' re referring to (indiscernible) of Public 19 Health? 20 A. Yes . 21 Q. And do you recall approximately when you 22 went over it with him? 23 A. When? What, I remember what time he comes 24 to the lounge, but I just don ' t remember . It was 25 (indiscernible) I saw him, but I don ' t recall . N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 31 1 Actually, I might . Give me one second. 2 Okay, in February 23, 2017 or it could be 3 a different date, I 'm not sure, but I remember 4 telling, he telling me, need to (indiscernible) this 5 form, so I created something for him later on . I 6 don ' t have the exact date right now. I don ' t have 7 exact date . But I ' m, you know, but I remember, you 8 know, he (indiscernible) and the application form 9 (indiscernible) . 10 Q. Okay. But it sounds like we ' re not able 11 to approximate a date . 12 A. No . 13 Q. Okay. So turning back to Exhibit 5 -- 14 A. Okay. 15 Q. -- COR-5 . Do you see how on this first 16 page in the third paragraph there is a reference -- 17 and I apologize, I will likely mispronounce the 18 name . But the two persons, one person' s name is 19 Sakram (phonetic) (inaudible) and the second 20 person' s name is Crombie (phonetic) (inaudible) ? 21 A. Yes . 22 Q. Okay. So who are they and how are they 23 related to the business? 24 A. I have known these people, both of them 25 for a long time, (indiscernible) ten years I have N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 32 1 known them. They' re one of my best friend' s 2 brothers . And how they' re related to the business 3 is that they wanted to open up a lounge and they 4 came to me and they were very trusted. 5 And because I have known them for so many 6 years I wanted to give them a chance and wanted to 7 also not only that I wanted to expand the business 8 and there ' s a reason for it . The first reason is I 9 will give you if -- so they are in a business with 10 me right now. 11 Not on the same license, however, they' re 12 in the Kent business license . It ' s for KBG 13 Investment Group, you already have it . It ' s for 14 Kazi ' s Hookah Lounge in Kent . Same brand, same 15 name . They' re in a business with me . And when I 16 created them business license was in June, I 17 believe, or July, July 2017 . 18 Before they been coming, and I know that 19 they come to the lounge, you know, we smoke hookah 20 or talk or, you know, things like that all the time . 21 But obviously in order to know a business or know 22 what you ' re doing or even open up for a business, 23 you ' re going to put your money into something like 24 that, you want to know the basic foundation of the 25 business by learning how the business works or what N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 33 1 the clients feel or, you know, getting to know each 2 other, because you want to create a relationship 3 with them, customers, clients in this business which 4 is that ' s when the customer will respect you and 5 follow the lounge rule . 6 Like if you don ' t have a relationship with 7 the customer they will not respect you or even 8 listen to you if you tell them to sit down or leave 9 from the property, or if you tell them not to do 10 something or (indiscernible) or make sure your 11 (indiscernible) . ( Indiscernible) they will not 12 respect you unless you have a good connection with 13 them. 14 That ' s when they will respect -- "Okay, 15 Shadika said, you know, I shouldn ' t bring this or I 16 shouldn ' t hang out in the parking lot . I respect 17 her because I have known her for that long. I will 18 do as she said. " That ' s kind of relationship we try 19 to maintain with them. That ' s when we have a very 20 good connection (indiscernible) . Same thing, you 21 know, as (indiscernible) , they want to do the same 22 thing. They want to feel like they' re -- they' re 23 young, you know, they' re not old. They ' re young. 24 You know, older people, you know, the people of 25 their age they might not respect them. N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 34 1 So in order to gain their respect you have 2 to talk to one another and you have to find out what 3 they like, you know, you have to see what ' s going on 4 with the business how within it operate so that way 5 it ' s good, effective business for future . Because 6 the way I look at it, everywhere I see there is 7 crime and violence . One group of people has problem 8 with the other group of people, somebody ' s from the 9 west side, somebody ' s from the east side, somebody ' s 10 from the south side, everywhere . 11 Now when I decided to open the one in 12 Kent, the reason is I had problem situation where I 13 don ' t want to see my ex . And she comes to the ex 14 and he see her with another man, now that ' s a 15 problem right there . But if both of them wants to 16 come to the same lounge because they like it, they 17 like that (indiscernible) coming here, but not to 18 see their ex with another person (indiscernible) , so 19 something going to happen at that point . 20 So that ' s why what happened with some of 21 our members really appreciate it that there ' s a 22 second lounge . Now if they decide, okay, well, you 23 can come to the Renton, we can go to the Kent so we 24 don ' t see each other, so which is very nice because 25 now you don ' t have to see the person that you don ' t N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 35 1 want to see . 2 And, for example, what we (indiscernible) 3 think about you have a bar and there ' s only one bar 4 in the whole Renton area that everybody goes to the 5 same bar, what ' s going to happen? I mean you would 6 probably see the person you don ' t want to see . You 7 will see the person you have problem with 8 (indiscernible) . And you see that person and both 9 of you guys decide to come there because that ' s the 10 only bar, things will definitely happen that wine 11 bar or alcohol bar or club or something, something 12 will happen, versus you have multiple location in 13 same city then everybody is kind of went everywhere 14 and you don ' t associate with them. 15 Q. Okay. So, but to clarify, the two 16 gentlemen are associated with the Kent location -- 17 A. Yes . 18 Q. -- not the Renton. 19 A. No . 20 Q. Okay. And you mentioned wine bar or 21 alcohol bar. To be clear, this is a hookah lounge . 22 A. Yes . 23 Q. So would you please describe for the 24 record what is involved with the hookah? What is 25 smoked and what is that like? What is the N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 36 1 atmosphere like? 2 A. Definitely. Hookah is very traditional . 3 It came from generation, from Empire Mughal time 4 very long ago, ancient (indiscernible) , you know, 5 those times . It ' s very, very heritage for the 6 people in Middle East, for the people in South Asia . 7 This is something like if you think about 8 (indiscernible) lounge, you know, they will the same 9 things . This is heritage or (indiscernible) . 10 They will say, "This is our culture . " 11 That hookah is our culture . It came from many 12 generation . You know, back in the days they used to 13 do straight tobacco which is very strong and you can 14 smell it far, far away, probably, you know, two 15 miles away. But now, generation, it has been 16 changing in the Middle East . They' re coming out 17 with flavor very light, sweet, has the sweet taste 18 to it, smell to -- you don ' t smell anything bad. 19 Where you cannot smell cigarette -- I 20 cannot smell cigarette or weed. I cannot be around 21 it and I will suffocate . And, you know, there are 22 times I went to, you know, casinos and this person 23 next to me smoking cigarette, I just have to -- 24 okay, I cannot . Cannot leave the table at the same 25 time, but because I 'm doing something N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 37 1 (indiscernible) , something that I have to go through 2 a lot during that time . 3 Anyways, so definitely this is a very 4 culture thing and it tastes good. And it has sweet 5 flavor, tasted that orange, peach, strawberry, 6 mango, things like that . How is it created, it has 7 a water pipe on the bottom so it ' s water and it goes 8 up . It has a flavor in a bowl, so whichever flavor 9 you like . It has oil on top and it has charcoal . 10 And we use coconut charcoal which is very natural 11 and it ' s good for health, I would say better than 12 (indiscernible) . 13 So, and we use that and it stays good for 14 25 minutes to an hour . That charcoal lasts for a 15 long time compared to charcoal probably two minutes 16 max and it gives you headache, you know, have 17 problem. But coconut charcoal has a little bit more 18 dense, so it ' s very good. I have some sample of it . 19 So this is (indiscernible) . And these are 20 00 we don ' t use because it gives you problems or -- 21 yeah, so these are the ones . Yes, so that ' s how 22 hookah is . 23 Q. Okay, thank you . So almost wrapped up 24 here, if you would please turn to Exhibit COR-3 . 25 A. COR-3 . N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 38 1 Q. You can see that this is a letter to the 2 City from Mr. Scott Neal? 3 A. Yes . 4 Q. And then it has an attachment and the 5 attachment begins , "Case History Report"? 6 A. Yes . 7 Q. If you would, on the first page of that 8 attachment, do you see about two-thirds of the way 9 down there is an entry for 4/20/17? 10 A. Oh, yes . 11 Q. And it indicates that notice of violation, 12 warning and required by statute official 13 (indiscernible) issued via standard U. S . Mail? 14 A. Yes . 15 Q. Do you recall any notice of violation on 16 or around that date? 17 A. Let me see . I 'm sure, you know, 18 (indiscernible) was mad about something . He gets 19 mad pretty quick. So, yes, (indiscernible) . 20 Q. Do you have the violation that was noted 21 in here? 22 There is a violation attached to the 23 exhibit. 24 A. Oh . 25 Q. If you turn to Exhibit COR-1 , if you thumb N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 39 1 through, one of the attachments has the Public 2 Health logo at the top and is titled, "Notice of 3 Violation. " 4 A. Okay, I don ' t understand (indiscernible) 5 say something about smoking (indiscernible) and 6 (indiscernible) , so what is that? I mean I have no 7 idea . 8 Q. So for the purposes of the record, it 9 looks like we ' re about halfway through Exhibit 1 and 10 we ' re looking at a document with Public Health logo 11 at the top and it' s titled, "Case Number 12 NA020170630-216 . Do you see that? 13 A. Okay. N-0 -- NA020170630216 . 14 Q. Yes . 15 A. Okay, I see that . It ' s on your COR-l . 16 Yes, right . 17 Q. So did you appeal this notice of 18 violation? 19 A. No, I did not because I 'm not sure if I 20 ever received this . Oh, maybe I have because I saw 21 something like that came to me, actually, and I was 22 not sure what is unimproved nicotine delivery 23 (indiscernible) . 24 Q. Yes . 25 A. I remember something like that, something N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 40 1 in -- this was not the notice of violation on that 2 date . It was on that date I believe Fel came to 3 tell me that security is to be outside or it was on 4 (indiscernible) , right? 5 Q. Yes . So for purposes of clarifying the 6 record, this , do you see about two-thirds of the way 7 down on that same page it states that the date of 8 violation is June 25th, 2017? 9 A. Yes . 10 Q. So we are talking about a different date 11 than the April date just to clarify the record. 12 A. So we ' re talking about (indiscernible) , 13 we ' re talking about (indiscernible) . Sorry, this is 14 -- when is this violation was given, in April or 15 June? 16 Q. Well, it appears to me June, but if you'd 17 like to review it, that' s fine . 18 A. Yes, I think I need to review it first . 19 It says in June 2017, but it was from April . That ' s 20 where you are? (Indiscernible) I 'm not sure 21 exactly. 22 Q. So to clarify my question, you' re looking 23 at the April 20th, 2017 entry so indicates 24 (indiscernible) report, and you weren' t certain if 25 you recalled it or not so you asked if there was a N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 41 1 notice of violation in the record, so then I pointed 2 you to a different notice of violation. 3 So I understand this , but you tell me if 4 you disagree . I understand the page that we ' re 5 looking at to be a different incident. 6 A. I have no idea . I cannot agree to 7 something until I find this, what exactly happened 8 to this . 9 Q. Actually I think you answered my question. 10 My question was simply whether you appealed it. 11 A. Oh . 12 Q. I understand your answer to be no. 13 A. No . 14 MS . CLARK: Okay, great . That 15 (indiscernible) my questions . 16 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, any other 17 witnesses, Ms . Clark? 18 MS . CLARK: Yes . 19 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay. 20 MS . CLARK: We would now like to call Ms . 21 Linda Welton . 22 HEARING EXAMINER: Do you swear or affirm 23 to tell the truth and nothing but truth in this 24 proceeding? 25 THE WITNESS : I do . N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 42 1 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay. 2 LINDA WELTON, having been first duly sworn, was 3 examined, and testified as follows : 4 EXAMINATION 5 BY MS . CLARK: 6 Q. Thank you, Ms . Welton. Would you please 7 state your name for the record and describe what 8 your role is with the City of Renton? 9 A. I 'm Linda Welton and I am the Business 10 License Coordinator in the Finance Department, and 11 my position is accounting assistant for -- 12 Q. So in that capacity, do you have any 13 relationship to the City' s Business Licensing 14 Department? 15 A. Yes . 16 Q. Would you please describe what that is? 17 A. So applications come in, I process the 18 applications, enter them, receive them. If there 19 (indiscernible) business it gets routed to two 20 departments, Code Compliance and Fire . Code 21 Compliance and Fire either approve or deny a 22 license, and then I do the final finishing of it, 23 printing it and mailing it to the (indiscernible) . 24 Q. And so did you have a similar role as to 25 this particular business , Kazi ' s Hookah Lounge? N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 43 1 A. Yes . 2 Q. Okay. So let' s work through some of the 3 exhibits . I ' ll first refer you to Exhibit COR-1 . 4 So if you turn to page 5 of that letter, is that 5 your signature on this letter? 6 A. Yes . 7 Q. So let' s begin by talking about the 8 attachments to this letter. The next page is a, it 9 appears to be a business license application and Ms . 10 Kazi had testified that she had filled it out. 11 Could you explain using this form as guidance how 12 the application process works and what an applicant 13 needs to do in order to obtain a business license? 14 A. Well, they submit the application and pay 15 their fees that are associated with it . Again I 16 enter all the data into the system and then it does 17 get routed to those two different departments . What 18 they' re looking for l don ' t know, but Code 19 Compliance and Fire . And then if it ' s approved, 20 then I do the final approval and send the license . 21 If it ' s denied then we deny it and usually 22 it ' s another department that will mail out the 23 denial letter because it ' s them that denied it, like 24 Code Compliance or Fire . 25 Q. And so what happened with this business N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 44 1 license application? 2 A. So this application actually went in and 3 if I remember right it was processed and the license 4 was issued. 5 Q. Okay. And then what about -- fast 6 forward, what about any renewal process? Was there 7 a renewal application and what happened with the 8 renewal application? 9 A. So we sent out a renewal application in 10 2016 because this was submitted in ' 15 . And then 11 the (indiscernible) business has reported all hours 12 worked in the city and their revenue and then the 13 license was renewed. Unless someone (indiscernible) 14 Code Compliance or another department says hold off 15 on that for a minute, we need to look some things up 16 and we need to do some research, then I would 17 (indiscernible) . 18 Q. And did that happen with this business? 19 A. It did at one point . It was not this 20 early on (indiscernible) . 21 Q. Okay. Did it happen subsequently? 22 A. Yes . 23 Q. And is that what led to us being here for 24 this appeal? 25 A. Yes . N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 45 1 Q. Okay. We ' ll get into more details with 2 that. For now let' s move deeper into the 3 attachments here. If you would turn a few more 4 pages and here ' s that there is a collection of 5 (indiscernible) pages . Have you reviewed these? 6 A. Yes, I have . 7 Q. Okay. So if you would walk us through 8 these pages , point out any references that you see 9 to employees or staff including security. And let 10 me back up. It appears that this is (indiscernible) 11 pages relating to Kazi ' s Hookah Lounge and the 12 Renton address, is that right? 13 A. Correct . 14 Q. So these appear to be Yelp reviews for the 15 Kazi ' s (indiscernible) , okay. So as I mentioned, if 16 you would walk us through and point out references 17 to employees or staff or security issues . 18 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, which exhibit 19 number are we looking at? 20 MS . CLARK: This is Exhibit 1, COR-1, and 21 it is the Yelp reviews that are about halfway 22 through . 23 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, great . Thank 24 you . 25 THE WITNESS : So the first thing I notice N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 46 1 on here is it says that her business is open from 2 3 : 00 to 1 : 00 a .m. And on the application and 3 letters that were submitted the business is supposed 4 to be open, I think it was 5 : 00 . 5 : 00 to 1 : 00 is 5 what was put on one of the applications . And so 6 right there the earlier start than what we were told 7 they were going to do . 8 When I see the belly dancer it kind of 9 questions do they pay for a belly dancer? Is she an 10 independent contractor? If she is, then she 11 (indiscernible) . 12 "Great customer service" would kind of 13 point to me that there might be employees . On the 14 second page of that first line, the fourth one down, 15 "The staff are lovely and show they value business, " 16 so that to me would be employees . 17 Another one does speak about security 18 guards, so that would be another thing. The 19 security guards are paid. Was he an employee of the 20 lounge or is he an independent contractor? 21 And there is references like on the page 3 22 of 5, right under the picture, "ample parking, 23 (indiscernible) friendly and helpful staff, " 24 (indiscernible) . So that would indicate to me that 25 there is actually employees there, and that pretty N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 47 1 much (indiscernible) . 2 BY MS . CLARK: 3 Q. Okay. And then following the Yelp reviews 4 it appears that there are Facebook reviews and posts 5 that (indiscernible) ; do you see those? 6 A. Yes . 7 Q. And did you review those as well? 8 A. Yes, I did. 9 Q. And did you see similar references to 10 employees and staff? 11 A. Yes, "Best atmosphere, service, crew and 12 entertainment . " So the service and the crew, so 13 that to me would be (indiscernible) . 14 Q. Okay. 15 A. And there are quite a few here . 16 Q. Okay, so backing up from the attachments 17 to the letter itself, would you please describe what 18 the purpose of this letter was? 19 A. The first letter? 20 Q. Yes . 21 A. So just describe it? 22 Q. Yes . 23 A. Okay. This is just to ask the King County 24 Health Board of what they've done so far to this 25 point and how many inspections they've had and N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 48 1 pretty much just kind of letting them know that 2 we ' re (indiscernible) right now. 3 Q. Okay. Let' s move then to Exhibit COR-3 . 4 This is a letter dated April 16th, 2018 to Renton 5 City Attorney from Mr. Scott Neal . Have you 6 reviewed a copy of this letter? 7 A. Yes, I did. 8 Q. And do you understand it to be Public 9 Health response to the letter that we were just 10 talking about? 11 A. Yes . 12 Q. Let' s move then to Exhibit 4 . And again 13 if you turn to page 5 , would you please confirm 14 whether that is your signature? 15 A. Yes, it is . 16 Q. Okay. So this is a letter dated April 17 19th that you sent to Ms . Kazi ; is that right? 18 A. That ' s correct . 19 Q. So it appears in this letter that the City 20 concluded that Kazi ' s was a public place and a place 21 of employment; is that right? 22 A. Yes . 23 Q. And that was based in part on the County' s 24 letter? 25 A. And also on hours worked that they put on N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 49 1 their business license renewal . 2 Q. Okay. Would you please describe what you 3 mean by that? 4 A. So on the business license renewal we ask 5 for hours worked by all employees or everyone, and 6 they did list that on the renewal 4, 858 hours 7 worked. 8 Q. Okay, so based on information from Public 9 Health and the hours worked, this letter then denies 10 the renewal of the business license -- 11 A. Correct . 12 Q. -- and ordered the business to close; is 13 that right? 14 A. Correct . 15 Q. So then I 'm going to ask you about several 16 exhibits at once. Ms . Weldon, would you please 17 confirm whether or not it' s correct that Exhibits 5 18 through 8 are appeal correspondence between the City 19 and Ms . Kazi? 20 A. 7 , yes . 8, yeah, direct correspondence 21 from Kazi to us . Yes . 22 Q. Okay. And is it your understanding that 23 after this exchange of appeal correspondence that 24 the City' s position didn' t change, that the City 25 maintained its denial of the business license N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 50 1 renewal and its order to close the business? 2 A. Yes, it is . 3 MS . CLARK: Okay. Thank you, Ms . Weldon . 4 That concludes my questions . 5 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay. 6 Ms . Kazi, do you have any questions of Ms . 7 Weldon? 8 MS . KAZI : Yeah. I mean -- 9 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, go ahead. 10 MS . KAZI : -- I 'm not sure if I 'm supposed 11 to (indiscernible) the things right now or 12 (indiscernible) -- 13 HEARING EXAMINER: Well, if you want 14 information from Ms . Weldon you need to ask her the 15 questions now. 16 MS . KAZI : Information, no . 17 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, that ' s fine . 18 MS . KAZI : (Indiscernible) . 19 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, all right . 20 Okay, Ms . Clark? 21 MS . CLARK: The City ' s next witness is Ms . 22 Donna Locher . 23 HEARING EXAMINER: All right, Ms . Locher, 24 do you swear or affirm to tell the truth and nothing 25 but the truth in this proceeding? N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 51 1 THE WITNESS : I do . 2 DONNA LOCHER, having been first duly sworn, was 3 examined, and testified as follows : 4 EXAMINATION 5 BY MS . CLARK: 6 Q. Thank you, Ms . Locher. Would you please 7 state your name and position with the City for the 8 record? 9 A. Sure . I ' m Donna Locher . I 'm the lead 10 Code Compliance Inspector for the City of Renton . 11 Q. And, Ms . Locher, in that capacity do you 12 have a role with business licensing in the City? 13 A. I do . 14 Q. And would you please describe that? 15 A. Yes . I check every business license that 16 -- new business license that comes into the city. I 17 check for zoning, location . I check occupancy to 18 make sure whether a business is going into that 19 building is okay, and either approve it or ask for 20 additional information or l deny it based on it not 21 being legal . 22 Q. Okay. And did you have any role with this 23 particular business , Kazi ' s , as to business 24 licensing? 25 A. I did. N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 52 1 Q. Okay. Would you please describe that? 2 A. When they first came in and applied for a 3 license in the very beginning I denied the business 4 license . 5 Q. And what was the basis for that? 6 A. The basis was that it was a hookah lounge, 7 indoor smoking. We didn ' t have any information from 8 the Kazi ' s Hookah Lounge as to what that entailed, 9 how they operated, who was there . I needed more 10 information and I denied the license . 11 Q. Okay. And, finally, to Code Enforcement' s 12 knowledge is the business still operating? 13 A. Yes . 14 MS . CLARK: Okay, thank you . That 15 concludes my questions . 16 HEARING EXAMINER: All right . 17 Ms . Kazi, do you have any questions for 18 Ms . Locher? 19 MS . KAZI : Yes . 20 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay. 21 EXAMINATION 22 BY MS . KAZI : 23 Q. Ms . Donna, I want to ask you, you said you 24 actually denied the business license at first. 25 A. I did. N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 53 1 Q. Do you recall what your day or month that 2 you had denied (indiscernible) ? 3 A. It was whenever you first applied for your 4 business license . 5 Q. So it was 2015 in April? 6 A. Could be, yes . 7 MS . KAZI : Could be, okay. So, okay, 8 thank you . 9 THE WITNESS : Sure, no problem. 10 HEARING EXAMINER: Thank you, Ms . Locher . 11 MS . CLARK: Okay, at this time the City 12 would like to call Mr . Scott Neal . 13 HEARING EXAMINER: All right, Mr . Neal, do 14 you swear or affirm to tell the truth and nothing 15 but the truth in this proceeding? 16 THE WITNESS : I do . 17 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay. 18 SCOTT NEAL, having been first duly sworn, was 19 examined, and testified as follows : 20 EXAMINATION 21 BY MS . CLARK: 22 Q. Thank you, Mr. Neal . Would you please 23 state your name and employment position for the 24 record? 25 A. Sure, my name is Scott Neal and I manage N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 54 1 the Tobacco Prevention Program for Public Health 2 (indiscernible) . 3 Q. Thank you. So are you familiar with the 4 business that is the subject of the hearing today, 5 Kazi ' s Hookah Lounge in Renton? 6 A. I 'm as familiar with it (indiscernible) , 7 so yes . 8 Q. Okay, thank you, and because in your 9 capacity you have had some involvement with the 10 business? 11 A. Yes . 12 Q. I 'm going to hand you a copy of COR-1 , 13 Exhibit 1 , and if you would take a moment to look at 14 it to familiarize yourself with the context 15 (indiscernible) . 16 A. Okay. 17 Q. So this appears to be a letter and Ms . 18 Weldon testified to it, but that is addressed to 19 you. Do you recall receiving it? 20 A. Yes, I do . 21 Q. And so it was a request from the City for 22 Public Health to look further into indoor smoking 23 issues as to Kazi ' s ; is that a fair 24 characterization? 25 A. Yes, that ' s correct . N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 55 1 Q. So one of the attachments is the notice of 2 violation that Ms . Kazi was testifying about that is 3 about, I don' t know, halfway through the packet. It 4 appears to be signed by you and I just wanted to 5 confirm whether that was correct, if this was the 6 notice of violation that you had issued. 7 A. This is a notice of violation and 8 correction order, so it ' s we title those notice of 9 orders . Essentially a notice of violation is the 10 first official notice that we supply to someone who 11 is in violation which it looks similar to 12 (indiscernible) . If we were also copying this 13 document or mailing it we would provide it, but this 14 is the actual one that says, "Now you have had a 15 violation at least twice and you are now fined 16 (indiscernible) , " and (indiscernible) . 17 Q. Okay, thank you . Would you walk us 18 through it and explain what it means as to Kazi ' s? 19 A. Yes . So it ' s addressed to Kazi ' s Hookah 20 Lounge and it ' s basically notifying them that they 21 are in violation of state law RCW 70 . 160 and also 22 (indiscernible) health codes that are similar in 23 that they ' re smoking (indiscernible) . And then it 24 basically says, it identifies 19 . 03 . 050 , 25 (indiscernible) smoking (indiscernible) . It talks N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 56 1 about the different places that they' re in 2 violation . It talks about the dates of violation, 3 civil penalty and notice here, and below that and a 4 correction order which is (indiscernible) smoking in 5 all public places and places of employment 6 (indiscernible) the business, and then it provides 7 an appeal process (indiscernible) . 8 Q. To your knowledge, was that notice 9 (indiscernible) appealed? 10 A. No, it was not . 11 Q. Now I 'm going to hand to you Exhibit 3, 12 (indiscernible) 3 . So this appears to be a letter 13 dated April 16th, 2018 to the City Attorney of the 14 City of Renton from you; is that correct? 15 A. That ' s correct . 16 Q. Would you please describe the contents of 17 this letter and give us an overview of what it 18 attaches? 19 A. Yes . This was a letter that I put 20 together to respond to the City of Renton ' s request 21 about the case history on this location . So the 22 letter briefly summarizes the case history, the 23 first part of the actual letter content and the 24 second piece to this is the case history report . So 25 there ' s a summary of each inspection N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 57 1 (indiscernible) . 2 Q. Okay, thank you. So now let' s take a step 3 back and provide some context for this exchange of 4 correspondence . Would you please describe for the 5 hearing examiner what your role is within Public 6 Health, but then also Public Health' s role as to 7 (indiscernible) smoking issues? 8 A. Yeah, so (indiscernible) Public Health 9 Department ' s role, RCW 70 . 160 is the state ' s 10 secondhand smoke law. (Indiscernible) also adopted 11 a local code that basically mirrors that and adds 12 clarifying definitions and different things to help 13 -- not help enforcement, help implement the 14 enforcement of the state law. 15 And so the Health Department has the 16 authority to enforce smoking ban, if you will, in 17 places (indiscernible) . So my job as the manager of 18 the program is to oversee our inspector ' s case 19 reports . And before any notices of violations go 20 out or (indiscernible) and fees, those get -- we sit 21 down and we review the history and then I approve 22 that, that notice to go out . So that ' s my role . 23 Q. Okay. And so when we ' re looking at the 24 notice and order a moment ago for Kazi ' s , did that 25 background reviewing that case history happen with N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 58 1 Kazi ' s? 2 A. Yes, it did. 3 Q. And so now coming back to this Exhibit 3 4 that we 've been talking about, with the background 5 about Public Health' s role in terms of the -- in 6 your smoking ban, what conclusions , if any, was 7 Public Health drawing in this letter? 8 A. It ' s my recollection and based on the 9 letter here that we had visited Kazi ' s a number of 10 times and in every time we found one reason or 11 another to deem them in violation . The way the law 12 works is that you have to pass both tests . 13 (Indiscernible) public place, you cannot be a public 14 place and you cannot have employees . It only takes 15 one side to be in violation and at any one time 16 something was causing it to be in violation . 17 Q. And so it was your conclusion that the 18 business was operating in violation of the indoor 19 smoking ban? 20 A. That is correct . 21 Q. So let' s move on then Exhibit 9 . I 'm 22 actually going to hand you four exhibits at once. 23 So here are 9 through 12 , and if you would look at 24 Exhibit 9 and it appears again to be a letter signed 25 by you. Could you please confirm whether that' s N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 59 1 correct and then describe what this letter was meant 2 to do? 3 A. Yes . This is a letter signed by me . This 4 was sent out to all known private smoking facilities 5 that this was a cover letter essentially to a couple 6 of documents that are identified in here . That 7 there was determination by our department that there 8 will be re-issues of guidelines for businesses that 9 wish to become smoking, officially smoking private 10 facilities, because there ' s always a claim of 11 (indiscernible) understanding what the law 12 (indiscernible) and interpretation of the law, so we 13 were aiming to provide some clarity of that . 14 Q. Okay. And so you mentioned that the 15 letter attaches to documents . The first one is 16 titled, it begins with FAQ. Is that Exhibit 10 in 17 your packet? Is that the same document? 18 A. Yes . 19 Q. Okay. And then the cover letter also 20 references a document titled, "Information for 21 Private Smoking Facilities . " Would you look and 22 confirm whether that is Exhibit 11? 23 A. Yes . That is (indiscernible) . 24 Q. And is Exhibit 11 also referred to by 25 Public Health sometimes in the guidelines? N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 60 1 A. Yes . 2 Q. All right. So let' s then turn to Exhibit 3 10 , the Frequently Asked Questions exhibit, and if 4 you would walk us through what this document 5 explains . 6 A. This basically is kind of a simple way to 7 understand the secondhand smoke law and how we 8 (indiscernible) to help clarify what public place 9 is, where is it prohibited, provide some examples 10 (indiscernible) and (indiscernible) . It also goes 11 into place of employment issues and what 12 (indiscernible) employment, what employees are . It 13 talks about when the business may (indiscernible) 14 smoking and then the signage that is required, as 15 well as who ' s enforcing this law, how it applied to 16 (indiscernible) and folks who are concerned about 17 this (indiscernible) . And then it goes over the 18 (indiscernible) violations (indiscernible) . 19 Q. And so for the cover letter that is 20 Exhibit 9, the Public Health intended the Frequently 21 Asked Questions document be sent to all hookah 22 lounge operators? 23 A. Yes . 24 Q. And so for the frequently asked questions 25 and the descriptions that you mentioned about N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 61 1 smoking in public places and places of employment, 2 does Public Health uniformly apply these provisions 3 to all hookah lounges? 4 A. We uniformly apply these to all businesses 5 that allow smoking. 6 Q. Okay, (indiscernible) . 7 A. Yeah. 8 Q. So let' s then move to Exhibit 11 , the 9 guidelines . And a similar question as to the 10 previous exhibit, would you walk us through these 11 guidelines and walk us even into some of the detail 12 about what Public Health has determined in terms of 13 guidelines for places of employment and a public 14 place and how that played out in terms of what 15 Public Health looks for in its inspections . 16 A. Sure . This is a little more detailed than 17 the last one because (indiscernible) is really 18 relative to how the whole law is enforced across the 19 board. This was designed to provide those folks 20 that wish to be private smoking facilities and 21 actually allow smoking, this was sort of a deeper 22 dive into the interpretations around the law that 23 we ' re using to deem whether they' re in violation or 24 not . 25 And so we kind of quickly go into places N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 62 1 of employment which is the first test and talk about 2 with what they must be operated without employees 3 and what employees look like, people who work for 4 employer for exchanges for wages or profit, people 5 who volunteer their services (indiscernible) . 6 Those, even like contract services are we would 7 probably (indiscernible) health code (indiscernible) 8 employees . 9 So we want to make that very clear that 10 this means really only the owner can operate 11 (indiscernible) , could operate (indiscernible) . And 12 then it talks about public place and provides a 13 number of guidelines that it ' s a little bit harder 14 for us to say you ' re public or private because 15 there ' s not a clear delineation that we must do 16 this . And so we ' ve created, based on our legal 17 attorneys and case law, background, research 18 (indiscernible) , go over things that if we would use 19 in conjunction together that would make it look like 20 a private facility. 21 And so there ' s a number of places, items 22 which include (indiscernible) , not open to just 23 anybody who walks in, restrictions on exterior 24 signage so that it doesn ' t look like a grocery 25 store . We also, it ' s also important to us that N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 63 1 there ' s no secondhand smoke (indiscernible) clearly, 2 public places, and then only approved members should 3 be permitted and not just anybody from the public . 4 Frequent key criteria for a private facility in our 5 estimation are there must be selective criteria, so 6 it can ' t just be anybody. There has to be a reason 7 why some are members and some aren ' t members . 8 Restricted to members only and then legal smoking 9 age, for instance, and then limited to 2, 500 active 10 members at any one time . 11 Then there ' s it talks more about sort of 12 what ' s the process of becoming a member . And one of 13 the things that a business would need to show us to 14 sort of prove that there are actually official 15 members that are in this (indiscernible) and that 16 included application processes, recommendations for 17 your current members, you know, signed membership 18 forms, membership lists to show us how many members, 19 those type of things that would help corroborate, 20 you know, those key issues about . And then to have 21 those records available for inspections so that we 22 can prove (indiscernible) . 23 Q. Okay. And so again a similar question as 24 to the FAQs document, does Public Health uniformly 25 apply these guidelines to all indoor smoking N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 64 1 facilities? 2 A. Absolutely. 3 Q. And so was a (indiscernible) conclusion 4 based in the letter that is the Exhibit 3 that 5 Kazi ' s did not meet the guidelines for place of 6 employment and public place? 7 A. Yes, they did not . 8 Q. So in your experience could a hookah 9 lounge meet the guidelines of Exhibit 11? 10 A. It has not been my experience that any of 11 the hookah lounges are operating (indiscernible) 12 right now . It would be very difficult at best to 13 operate what (indiscernible) and because of the 14 state laws (indiscernible) . 15 Q. Okay, and in terms of the rule of 16 inspecting hookah lounges or other indoor smoking 17 locations for compliance, is that something that 18 your colleague, Mr. Pajimula, does for example for 19 this Kazi ' s Hookah Lounge? 20 A. Yes . That ' s one of his duties, yes . 21 Q. And so then does he work with you or come 22 back with you about the details of his findings 23 about inspections? 24 A. Yes, he does . 25 Q. And so for this Kazi ' s business, was it a N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 65 1 collaboration of information from him that fed in 2 part into your letter that we 've been talking about 3 where you concluded that was a place of employment 4 and a public place? 5 A. Yes . 6 Q. So at this point from the testimony that 7 you've heard from Ms . Kazi today and then the 8 documents that we have, does Public Health have any 9 change in perspective on whether the business is 10 operating in compliance with the indoor smoking ban? 11 A. We would have to obviously inspect it 12 again to know how we ' re operating today, but no, 13 there ' s no change that I would see from testimony 14 today that would indicate that it ' s been changed 15 (indiscernible) . 16 MS . CLARK: Okay, thank you, 17 (indiscernible) . 18 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, Ms . Kazi, any 19 questions of Mr . Neal? 20 MS . KAZI : Yes, I (indiscernible) . 21 EXAMINATION 22 BY MS . KAZI : 23 Q. I wanted to know what is the law of 24 Washington State regarding a smoking facility that 25 allows smoking not just from the Public Department N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 66 1 (sic) , from the Washington State law. 2 A. The Washington State law, it ' s one of the 3 strictest laws in the nation and it prohibits 4 smoking in any public place . A public place is 5 clearly defined as any business or building that ' s 6 open to the public (indiscernible) . Not just 7 (indiscernible) that also -- and a place of 8 employment is also that second test . 9 So you can ' t have smoking in place, a 10 public place, business or building that ' s open to 11 the public and any place that doesn ' t have, or has 12 employees . So if there ' s any employees working you 13 cannot have that . That (indiscernible) to some 14 degree . So -- 15 Q. Okay. Correct me if I 'm wrong, but I 'd 16 like to know it says in the Washington State law 17 obviously everything about the employee and open to 18 public. It' s explained 25 feet away, ventilation 19 (indiscernible) . We know all that. Besides that it 20 says exception, this chapter is not intended to 21 regulate smoking in a private, enclosed or place, 22 within a public place even though such workplace may 23 be visited by a nonsmoker. 24 A. Yeah, that ' s an awkward -- I would say 25 that I don ' t know how to quite interpret that . I 'm N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 67 1 not an attorney and we haven ' t had a situation like 2 that one . I think that meant -- and I want to 3 remind everyone that this was an initiative so it 4 was not written by the legislature and so there are 5 some issues with that . That ' s not something that ' s 6 to my knowledge ever been tested (indiscernible) 7 what that really means . That does not appear to be 8 what -- that ' s not how -- we would not interpret 9 this situation to follow in that . 10 Q. So what is -- as far as I know Health 11 Department rules on making sure that all the 12 restaurants , bars -- so if you were to go in a bar 13 and you see some business owner letting their 14 customers smoke or light up a cigarette, that would 15 be initially a problem for the State because the 16 State wants to see clean air in places like public, 17 like schools , bars , restaurant. You know, they want 18 the customers , all the customers not to breathe the 19 second smoke hand (sic) ; am I right? 20 A. That ' s, I believe, the (indiscernible) -- 21 Q. Yes . So that is why the law came 22 (indiscernible) because (indiscernible) cigarette 23 over here, you know, and then everybody will get 24 (indiscernible) in smoke . So that' s something are 25 important as far as the Public Health Department to N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 68 1 make sure all these laws (indiscernible) . 2 They want, you know, making sure the minors are not 3 getting access to the, you know, cigarettes or any 4 kind of smoking. If you' re underage, you know, the 5 state law under 18 you cannot have a cigarette, you 6 know, purchase or nobody can sell it to you. Those 7 are the laws as much as I know of the health 8 official wants to make sure that this is 9 (indiscernible) , right? 10 A. Correct . 11 Q. Okay. So by that, so this statement right 12 here it says , "Private enclosed workplace within a 13 public place, even though (indiscernible) . " 14 (Indiscernible) . The other thing that I wanted to 15 ask you is (indiscernible) one second. So would you 16 please define to me how is Kazi ' s open to public? 17 A. I would have to go through each of the 18 inspections to recall exactly what each 19 determination was . But there were a number of times 20 that we didn ' t either get a membership list wasn ' t 21 provided so there was no way for us to know if there 22 was members or customers and how that 23 (indiscernible) became members . I mean there ' s a 24 number of different things that I would, you know, 25 (indiscernible) a recollection of how each N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 69 1 inspections work out . 2 Q. Okay. And what about the (indiscernible) 3 if you have it -- wait, I have it here. 4 A. Yeah. 5 Q. (Indiscernible) right now, this is 6 something that I have never seen before . This is 7 something that' s recently came (indiscernible) . 8 A. To clarify, Exhibit 12 is what our 9 inspector uses to create notes and so he follows 10 sort of -- it ' s an inspection checklist, if you 11 will, note area, note taking area . So it ' s based 12 off the interpretation, the guidelines that we 13 provided. This is information from businesses so 14 that information given you is that also checks when 15 we ' re out there . 16 Q. So this is not something I 'm supposed to, 17 this is something that you have your inspector have 18 carry with him while they inspect the place? 19 A. Correct . 20 Q. Yeah, this is why I was wondering I never 21 see (indiscernible) . 22 And one more question, did the laws of 23 Washington, they stated that smoking lounge needs to 24 (indiscernible) , facility, sorry. 25 A. There ' s one sentence in the definition of N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 70 1 public place that if I recall it correctly, 2 (indiscernible) is that I think you quoted it in 3 that this is -- or maybe that this is not intended 4 to prohibit smoking in a private facility when that 5 private facility is not open to the public 6 (indiscernible) . 7 Q. Oh, that' s another one. Gee, I didn' t 8 (indiscernible) , but that is another one . So that ' s 9 saying it' s a different one and I think it' s right 10 here . This is chapter is not intended for regular 11 smoking in a private -- okay, I have that one . 12 Sorry. This chapter is not intended to restrict 13 (indiscernible) smoking in a private facility 14 (indiscernible) location open to public except 15 (indiscernible) location when facility' s open to the 16 public. That quoting I even don' t understand, 17 because except when it doesn' t make sense . 18 The facility -- that ' s why I 19 (indiscernible) , I read the other one which made 20 sense . So I believe what it meant when it says this 21 chapter is not intended to regulate smoking in 22 private, enclosed workplace. So workplace basically 23 where you have employees , right? So in places like, 24 let' s say, a restaurant or an office, so you have 25 employees there . N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 71 1 So if there is a room over there and it is 2 closed, so it' s okay to go there to smoke which is 3 still in a public places because office is a public 4 places . If you have (indiscernible) open to general 5 public to come and work there and there is a private 6 place which is a room that it is okay. And it says 7 that room could be visited by a nonsmoker as well 8 which is not a big deal . 9 Like somebody like me, let' s say I am 10 smoking in this room and it says smoking 11 (indiscernible) . Close the door. You can unlock 12 it, you know, maybe somebody over here wants to come 13 say hi to me and just come say hi and they don' t 14 like the smell (indiscernible) , or if they want to 15 be in it, then they can be inside and it ' s 16 individual rights (indiscernible) choice 17 (indiscernible) . 18 A. I think there ' s some confusion of what ' s 19 in the definitions and then the piece that you keep 20 referring to, private workplace with a nonsmoking 21 area or whatever it ' s titled is an actual separate 22 section (indiscernible) law. I think the way we 23 look at that, that is not what is operating because 24 then you would say -- it would for instance, if 25 there was a backroom in your establishment, if it N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 72 1 was your private office, theoretically under that 2 other section that may or may not be able to allow 3 smoking. 4 But that would then deem the rest of your 5 place a public place which means the rest of the 6 location could not allow smoking. That ' s not 7 exactly what ' s going on here . I think what ' s going 8 on here is more clearly around the definition of 9 what a place of employment is and also public place 10 including that sentence that talks about private, 11 you know, private facilities . That ' s where this 12 case is really revolved around (indiscernible) . 13 MS . KAZI : Okay. I think that should be 14 all the information (indiscernible) . 15 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, any redirect, Ms . 16 Clark? 17 MS . CLARK: None . 18 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, thank you, Mr . 19 Neal . I appreciate you coming down again . 20 MS . CLARK: The City ' s final witness is 21 Mr . Fel Pajimula . 22 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay. 23 All right, do you swear or affirm to tell 24 the truth and nothing but the truth in this 25 proceeding? N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 73 1 THE WITNESS : I do . 2 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay. 3 FELS PAJIMULA, having veen first duly sworn, was 4 examined, and testified as follows : 5 EXAMINATION 6 BY MS . CLARK: 7 Q. Thank you, Mr. Pajimula. Would you please 8 state your name and title with Public Health for the 9 record? 10 A. Yes . My name is Fel Pajimula . I 'm 11 officially with the County. My position is Health 12 Program Assistant . I wear multiple different hats 13 in regards to this hearing today. I am inspector of 14 the (indiscernible) smoking (indiscernible) places 15 of employment . 16 Q. And in that role did you perform 17 inspections at the Kazi business in Renton? 18 A. I did, yes . 19 Q. Okay. So I 'm going to hand you a 20 collection of exhibits . And if you would, let' s 21 start with the one on top, Exhibit COR-3 . 22 A. Yes . 23 Q. So that document, again we talked about it 24 a couple times with other witnesses . It ' s a letter 25 but there ' s an attachment entitled, "Inspection Case N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 74 1 History. " Do you see that? 2 A. Case history report? 3 Q. Yes . 4 A. Yes . 5 Q. Okay. And so, first of all , would you 6 please thumb through this and let us know if this is 7 a summation of your inspections of the Kazi business 8 at Renton? 9 A. Yeah, it appears to be . I remember 10 submitting a number of dates and brief detail 11 overviews of the inspection that I conducted, 12 submitted them to Scott Neal and he wrote this . 13 Q. Okay, great. So by way of, I guess , 14 refreshing your memory as to what he found on 15 various inspection dates , let me walk you multiple 16 the dates on this sheet. Let' s begin with January 17 4th, 2017 . And it says that you conducted an 18 educational visit on that day. What' s an 19 educational visit? 20 A. So in regards to (indiscernible) , as Scott 21 mentioned there was a private facility guideline 22 document that was put together and so we went 23 through the process of trying to educate all 24 facilities that were allowing smoking to understand 25 or to receive our understanding of the way the law N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 75 1 works and how we would be responding and applying 2 that law to a business . 3 Q. Okay. So on January 4th, 2017 that ' s what 4 you were doing (indiscernible) ? 5 A. Yeah, so that visit (indiscernible) to 6 make sure they got the facility, the private smoking 7 facility guideline document in hand and it wasn ' t an 8 actual inspection . 9 Q. Okay. And so in that packet of exhibits 10 that I gave you, if you would find Exhibit marked 11 COR-11 . 12 A. Okay. 13 Q. And would you confirm whether or not that 14 is the document that you were referring to as having 15 given Ms . Kazi on the January 4th, 2017 date? 16 A. Correct . I carry multiple copies of this 17 with me during my inspections and hand it over 18 whenever somebody claims they didn ' t see it . 19 (Indiscernible) . 20 Q. Okay, great. Now let' s move down to the 21 next entry, February 23rd, 2017 . So this entry 22 appears that in contrast to the previous which was 23 an educational visit, this appears to have been an 24 inspection; is that correct? 25 A. To my recollection, yes . N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 76 1 Q. Okay. And so to your recollection, what 2 occurred, what were your findings? What did you see 3 upon that inspection? 4 A. Well, something that was mentioned 5 earlier, I do have a kind of an outline document 6 that guides me through what to observe and what to 7 request when I 'm conducting an inspection . And this 8 was quite a long time ago so and that ' s part of the 9 reason why we take reports and put them into our 10 databases . That ' s so we can recall what happens 11 long ago . 12 And then look, you know, this one it looks 13 like I observed some signage outside which is 14 something that ' s identified in the smoking 15 (indiscernible) , smoking facility document . And I 16 had unrestricted access to the entrance of the 17 business, whereas I didn ' t, you know, it was 18 unlocked. I was able to enter and get access to 19 (indiscernible) . 20 Q. And does that particular finding have any 21 particular meaning as to public place? 22 A. Yeah. In the guideline document it does 23 state that a business should be restricted entry and 24 should not be accessible by anybody from 25 (indiscernible) . N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 77 1 Q. What else did you find on that inspection? 2 A. (Indiscernible) Ms . Kazi was not able to 3 provide accurate membership details to demonstrate 4 application and approval process of the membership . 5 That goes back to the guideline document which 6 outlined our request to see applications and written 7 records of their members . 8 Q. And it looks like you observed a male 9 security person working inside . Is that a correct 10 reading of this inspection report? 11 A. In a number of inspections there was an 12 individual . I don ' t see where I might have noted 13 that in my observation . Oh, there it is . Yeah, 14 (indiscernible) . 15 Q. Okay. And you mentioned that that was 16 something that you witnessed a number of times on 17 your visits to Kazi ' s -- 18 A. Yeah. 19 Q. -- security working inside? 20 A. Yes . 21 Q. Okay. So then there is an entry, I guess 22 it' s the next entry, April 20th, 2017 , a notice of 23 violation issue . And what was the reason for 24 issuing the notice of violation? 25 A. I would imagine this notice of violation N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 78 1 was issued based on the inspection that occurred in 2 February. And looking at the report notes it could, 3 it would have been, one, open to the public because 4 I was able to access it unrestricted; and two, place 5 of employment because there was a security guard 6 working inside (indiscernible) . 7 Q. Okay. So let' s then move to the 6/25/2017 8 entry and it appears that this is also another 9 inspection entry. So would you again please 10 summarize what he found on that inspection date? 11 A. Sure . 6/25, again (indiscernible) Kazi ' s, 12 I was able to approach and enter the front door and 13 was greeted by a male security guard who again was 14 on the inside of the establishment . And then I was 15 able to identify Ms . Kazi in the general smoking 16 area and just observed the interactions of Ms . Kazi 17 and a couple other individuals . 18 Having what this brief report is capturing 19 is that it appeared that those individuals were 20 (indiscernible) , but either way (indiscernible) . 21 And then let ' s see, it looks like when I brought up 22 the fact that the security guard was inside, Ms . 23 Kazi asked him to step outside . I observed a large 24 number of individuals inside . 25 At the time I was also carrying a CO N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 79 1 monitor which monitors high exposure to carbon 2 monoxide and that ' s based on (indiscernible) . It ' s 3 just something that we ' re collecting to just kind of 4 have information for as far as my health and safety 5 is for when I 'm conducting these inspections . 6 And I was made aware of partners in the 7 business that Ms . Kazi (indiscernible) . 8 Q. So then the next entry, 6/30/2017 , states 9 that a notice of violation (indiscernible) were 10 issued. Do you know what the basis for that was? 11 A. I would deem 6/30 notice of violation was 12 created for the inspection that occurred on 6/25 . 13 Again because of the employee that was inside the 14 area . And looking through that last paragraph on 15 the inspection notes is inaccurate, not an up-to- 16 date full membership list (indiscernible) . 17 Q. And then is it a correct reading of the 18 next entry, 7/12/2017 , that on that date Public 19 Health received a confirmation that a notice and 20 order had been delivered? 21 A. Correct . So that notice and order does 22 get sent certified mail and we send it with a return 23 postcard, so when somebody does receive it a person 24 has to sign and that postcard comes back to us to 25 confirm that that notice and order did receive -- N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 80 1 did arrive at the recipient, intended person . 2 Q. So then moving down to now we ' re in 3 October, October 30th of 2017 , it looks like this is 4 another inspection entry. Would you please 5 summarize what you found on that day? 6 A. Sure, conducted another late-night 7 inspection . When I was inside the business I did 8 identify who I later learned to be Ms . Kazi ' s sister 9 performing her function . She was taking orders from 10 the individuals who were requesting pipes . So when 11 somebody' s needing a pipe that Ms . Kazi described 12 what that is, but those individuals aren ' t typically 13 putting them together themselves . 14 So it ' s kind of, you know, fast food-ish 15 where somebody orders, somebody puts together your 16 (indiscernible) . So according to my notes, Ms . 17 Kazi ' s sister was taking, at least taking orders 18 well inside the business, and then it was that 19 Victor Cousarez was performing work as well . He was 20 packing the hookahs and delivering them to the 21 individuals throughout the establishment . 22 Various levels of CO readings as I moved 23 about the facility, and then again Ms . Kazi was not 24 able to produce accurate records of (indiscernible) 25 establishment as a private facility, which is when I N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 81 1 request membership documentation . The guideline 2 document says up-to-date and accurate and that ' s all 3 I 'm looking for is up-to-date and accurate . 4 I think the easiest, the first question is 5 how many members do you have (indiscernible) . If 6 you can ' t give me a firm answer, that ' s not an 7 accurate answer, so . And then it says that I 8 determined (indiscernible) at the time and advised 9 them during this visit that they were in violation . 10 Q. So it appears that there ' s one final entry 11 in this list and that is April 5th, 2018 , which is 12 just I believe 11 days before Mr. Neal issued his 13 letter. This also indicates another inspection 14 record. Would you please again summarize what you 15 found on this date? 16 A. Sure . I entered the business via the 17 front door, which is again not locked, and had 18 unrestricted entry to the business . So this is 19 something that ' s prohibited, something that I 20 brought up multiple times during the inspections, 21 and if the public has access to the business that 22 would essentially lead to a violation of the 23 guidelines which is our interpretation of the RCW. 24 Once inside the business I made contact 25 with the security person again who was identified as N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 82 1 (indiscernible) , so the security guard was again 2 working inside, making it a place of employment . 3 This individual was checking IDs and I believe I did 4 observe him checking IDs that evening. 5 I spoke with Victor who at one point I did 6 verify he was on the business license and he 7 contacted Ms . Kazi on the phone to come speak with 8 me . And while I was waiting for Ms . Kazi, I just 9 double checked and verified that the products that 10 they were using as far as putting into their pipes, 11 which was off of our (indiscernible) tobacco . 12 Again I used the CO monitor so got 13 readings of that and I exited the business to 14 mitigate my secondhand smoke exposure while I waited 15 for Ms . Kazi . When she arrived I requested and 16 asked about new memberships and looked for 17 documentation of, you know, accurate records and 18 again it wasn ' t provided to me . 19 And she did state that they were open 20 every day of the week and they always operated with 21 (indiscernible) access . I know we had a lot of 22 discussion about converting from an electronic 23 record to (indiscernible) . And so there wasn ' t 24 again an accurate listing or recordkeeping of the 25 current members as far as application, approval, N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 83 1 dues date, anything and things like that . I think 2 in this specific inspection nothing was 3 (indiscernible) . 4 Q. So now if you would turn back to Exhibit 5 11 , the guidelines document, and based on your 6 description of the various inspection dates , would 7 you walk us through the guideline documents and 8 describe what elements of the guidelines were being 9 met or not being met based on your inspection 10 reports? 11 A. Sure . So when I do an inspection I bring 12 all the information I can get off this and as a team 13 we determine how to move forward on those 14 observations . As I went over with those multiple 15 inspections, place of employment that was something 16 that the one big test that wasn ' t passed multiple 17 times as far as the security guard being on the 18 inside as well as Ms . Kazi ' s sister performing work. 19 So that ' s a violation in that sense as far as a 20 place of employment . 21 The multiple tiers of public place is 22 something that we go over . Scott mentioned 23 (indiscernible) . So the guideline document requests 24 documentation of those applications and how an 25 identification of how you ' re selective, restricted, N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 84 1 and limited to your memberships . And so on 2 inspection I 'm looking for proof of adhering to 3 these guidelines and looking for the written process 4 and seeing that as an example and the actual files 5 that are (indiscernible) . 6 Q. Now let me stop you for just a moment and 7 ask you about an exhibit identified by the appellant 8 which I 'm going to hand to you. This has been 9 marked Exhibit A-14 . 10 A. Sure . 11 Q. So Ms . Kazi in her testimony described 12 this exhibit as being an application form that she 13 prepared and that she went over with you. So I 14 wanted us to have you explain whether you recall 15 seeing this document before and whether it is 16 sufficient, the document itself in your mind under 17 the guidelines . 18 And then third question -- 19 (indiscernible) , but third question is that in your 20 inspections did you see evidence that this 21 application form was being complied with? 22 A. I do have a slight recollection of this 23 form, but (indiscernible) there ' s a good chance that 24 I have it in my files (indiscernible) . But I did 25 not see current lists of like this of every single N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 85 1 member during my inspections . And again it kind of 2 goes back to her going from her Fivestar system to 3 whatever database she was migrating to as well as 4 the hard copy. 5 I know one time we sat down and went over 6 a few and that ' s probably what this document was . 7 I 've looked, unfortunately had to look at multiple 8 different applications for many different 9 businesses, so if this is exactly what she was using 10 then probably guess it was . It looks like it does 11 check off a number of boxes as far as determining 12 membership and application process approvals . 13 So yeah, I mean (indiscernible) . 14 Q. So again my final question was almost 15 setting aside what' s on the application form, in 16 your inspections and your inspection records, did 17 you see evidence that was contrary to what the 18 application form -- 19 A. Oh, yeah . Well, evidence as far as this 20 not being correct . So (indiscernible) request to 21 see accurate membership lists , this information 22 would be (indiscernible) and I believe that was 23 (indiscernible) . 24 Q. So then there was additional testimony 25 from Ms . Kazi , so back to the guidelines . We were N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 86 1 going over the membership criteria from selective, 2 restricted and limited, and Ms . Kazi testified that 3 from the business ' s perspective there ' s an effort to 4 meet the criteria for the 2 ,500 members cap. How 5 did these criteria work? Is it enough to meet one 6 of them or must a business meet all of them? 7 A. All of them, definitely. And again that ' s 8 something that when they have had (indiscernible) 9 that bring back, debrief on the inspection as a team 10 and go through a few of the points to whether or not 11 there ' s a violation (indiscernible) . So yes, it 12 would definitely be all of them. 13 Q. And so tell me if you need a moment to 14 again review the inspection history that you just 15 went over before you answer this question. But the 16 question is in your inspection history for Kazi ' s in 17 Renton that spans from February of 2017 to April of 18 2018 , is it a fair characterization to say that upon 19 each inspection Public Health concluded that the 20 business was either violating the public place 21 element or the place of employment element or both 22 as to indoor smoking ban? 23 A. I would say yes without looking over it . 24 It looks like the inspections were 2/23/17 , 6/25/17 25 and (indiscernible) ' 17 as well as (indiscernible) . N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 87 1 So that ' s four different inspections and it looks 2 like in my notes all four of those there were 3 identifying factors that would put them in violation 4 of the RCW. 5 MS . CLARK: That was my final question . 6 Thank you . 7 HEARING EXAMINER: All right, I have a 8 couple questions and we ' ll let Ms . Kazi . 9 EXAMINATION 10 BY HEARING EXAMINER: 11 Q. How many notices of violation were issued 12 to Ms . Kazi then? 13 A. To my recollection it would have been at 14 minimum it would have been the four times . 15 Q. Four? 16 A. Yeah, we typically will put together a 17 notice of violation for every inspection . 18 Q. Okay. 19 A. And those don ' t get sent certified mail, 20 but they do typically get mailed to the -- 21 Q. Okay. And they ' re all subject to 22 administrative appeal, correct? 23 A. Not the notice of violation, only the 24 notice of order . 25 Q. Oh, okay. N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 88 1 A. Notice of order is the (indiscernible) . 2 The notice of violation, the first one that the 3 business receives is essentially their warning as 4 Scott mentioned and it says fix these things . 5 Q. Right, okay. Okay, got it. 6 A. The second violation would then lead to 7 the notice of order . Any subsequent inspections we 8 would typically just order -- issue a notice of 9 violation while we ' re deciding how to 10 (indiscernible) . 11 Q. So how many notice of orders were sent 12 out? 13 A. Just one notice of order . 14 Q. Okay. And that one was not appealed; is 15 that correct? 16 A. Right . 17 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, all right . 18 Great, thank you . 19 All right, Ms . Kazi, any questions? 20 MS . KAZI : Yes, please . 21 HEARING EXAMINER: Yeah, go ahead. 22 EXAMINATION 23 BY MS . KAZI : 24 Q. (Indiscernible) I don' t want to, you know, 25 we obviously had a really good relation N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 89 1 A. Sure . 2 Q. -- and we know each other for many years . 3 Don' t get any hard feelings . 4 A. Not me . 5 Q. It' s something I have to do. I wanted to 6 first find out (indiscernible) some of the portion 7 about right now just asked. The first inspection 8 was done, I believe it was in January and it was 9 educational? 10 A. Correct . 11 Q. And then second one was (indiscernible) . 12 A. It appears that way. 13 Q. Yes . And you weren' t here (indiscernible) 14 some of the application form how it was created. 15 And I believe to show you somehow and I told -- I 16 remember I told you that this is what I created, do 17 you like it or not. You were really not sure about 18 it and you said you don' t like it as much as -- do 19 you recall it that you telling me that you don' t 20 like as much as the (indiscernible) forms 21 application? 22 A. I do recall having those conversations and 23 looking over some documents . And again because I 24 take all my information back to the office, I 25 typically don ' t give a determination of what I would N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 90 1 determine as far as a violation or a violation . I 2 may have slipped and mentioned something during a 3 meeting like that . 4 But looking back at my notes it just 5 stated not providing accurate membership details to 6 demonstrate application of rule process membership . 7 So if I remember correct, there was a lack of detail 8 and accurate records . So there may have been 50 9 sheets of paper with names and dates on them, maybe 10 some missing signatures, But then when you look at 11 this stack of 50 there was potentially hundreds of 12 members . 13 So where are the records for those 14 hundreds of inembers is whether -- 15 Q. I 'm sorry. I didn' t understand the last 16 part. Will you repeat? 17 A. Well, I didn ' t see an accurate membership 18 list of hundred percent (indiscernible) . 19 Q. Okay, yes . So that was looking one month 20 since you gave me the paper, "Hey, follow these 21 rules, " and inspect me within one month. And have 22 you recall that I asked you, "This is not enough 23 time for me to actually do this . All of a sudden, 24 (indiscernible) more time to work on this 25 application. " Do you recall that? N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 91 1 A. Sure . 2 Q. And I believe in when you came in 3 6/23/2017 and I (indiscernible) , this is the day I 4 gave him the new application form, so I found it and 5 this is the date actually. I can see that he saw a 6 picture and I believe (indiscernible) that' s when 7 you saw. I do have a portion about that. So you 8 saw Victor (indiscernible) . You saw (indiscernible) 9 or something, I 'm not sure which one. That was 10 somebody standing behind the counter, am I right? 11 A. Sure . 12 Q. And then I told him to either go from the 13 area or -- and then he approached you, you know, 14 (indiscernible) so he came up to you like, you know, 15 greet you or ask you a question. Do you recall 16 that? 17 A. (Inaudible) . 18 Q. Okay. Was he there doing something 19 besides standing? 20 A. I can ' t recall the specific details of it 21 and I don ' t think my notes state that he was 22 actively. So those two individuals were in there, 23 but I don ' t think that is pertinent considering the 24 security guard was working inside . 25 Q. Yes . And okay, about the security, yes . N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 92 1 You told me about the security or being inside, a 2 violation. And do you remember anytime that I went 3 in front of you and I told you I told the security 4 that -- the security was right there and I told him 5 in front of you, "The Health Department wants you to 6 be outside . He doesn' t want you to be inside, can 7 you do that?" And he said, "Yeah, yeah, yeah. " 8 That' s what he said. 9 I 'm not sure you can ever recall that 10 moment, but I actually told him (indiscernible) . 11 A. True . You did instruct him and he said, 12 "Yeah. " But if he was inside conducting work then 13 he was inside conducting work . That ' s just my 14 observations . 15 Q. You can do so much with the right peoples, 16 and people don' t really listen because they think 17 you are very nice and they just kind of, you know, 18 do whatever they like . 19 A. Sure . But (indiscernible) I would imagine 20 that you ' re paying his work maybe he should be 21 listening to your instructions . 22 Q. Okay. Oh, yes , I have another question. 23 Okay, I believe you said something about security 24 work. So I remember in somewhere before , either 25 before (indiscernible) , I believe somewhere in 2017 N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 93 1 you said you like the fact that I 'm adding a 2 security at the door . It kind of secure the door 3 for (indiscernible) just anybody getting in, getting 4 inside. So because of the security being there he ' s 5 actually a security (indiscernible) . 6 A. If he was outside not allowing me to enter 7 (indiscernible) . 8 Q. Yes . And my question is he was, adding a 9 security you thought was a great idea. 10 A. It was step in the right direction at that 11 point, yeah . 12 Q. And okay, I have another question. I 13 believe you also told me I asked too many questions 14 about how I can improve the business structure. How 15 can I actually change the way that needs to be the 16 business in a way that' s going to work with all the 17 rules and regulations . And not only me, I believe 18 (indiscernible) also asked you that question, same 19 thing. 20 What can we do to make some changes that 21 we can actually have (indiscernible) kind of problem 22 within (indiscernible) anything like that. So one 23 of the solution you gave me was to have customer 24 make their own hookahs (indiscernible) . The other 25 was to make sure, you know, some kind of like a N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 94 1 monthly payment system where they actually pay in 2 advance of just coming (indiscernible) hookah and 3 just smoke . And there ' s many other options that you 4 had, but you want to sit down and we can discuss 5 about this in the future . 6 A. Yeah, in those conversations I believe we 7 were just kind of one of those things, talking out 8 loud and exploring what options you may have . Again 9 I 'm not a lawyer and it ' s not our role to be 10 business advisors . So if we were discussing that it 11 wasn ' t in a role where I was advising you, "This is 12 what you should be doing, " but they were having 13 brainstorming options . 14 And just in the conversation you mentioned 15 when you first started questioning me, we have made 16 a little bit of a relationship . We have a friendly 17 back and forth . So in those conversations thinking 18 of, you know, thinking outside the box, exploring 19 what your options are may have come up in 20 conversation . Yeah . 21 Q. Okay. I think one of the portion -- have 22 you, I remember you saying you did not receive one 23 time of the membership which was in, I believe the 24 last inspection was in April, (indiscernible) when 25 (indiscernible) go and inspect it before we came N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 95 1 (indiscernible) or if there was any problem and why 2 (indiscernible) . But in that time I believe you 3 came into the lounge and you asked for the 4 membership paper and you were really extremely mad 5 at me for not having it and you waited for a long 6 time outside and you gave us 25 minutes 7 (indiscernible) . 8 And when I got there you said, "I just got 9 my lunch from out here . " And I came to you and you 10 said, "Can you give it to me?" And I was like, you 11 know, "We ' re just cleaning the lounge. At this 12 point I don' t think I can give it to you but I can 13 email it to you the next day. " 14 And you said, "Yes , that' s fine, just go 15 ahead and do that. But you do need to have it in 16 the building. " That ' s what you told me, which I had 17 no idea about. But I did apologize for not having 18 it at that point. But you, I also give you last 19 time an email . I believe it was in October 31st, 20 2017 . 21 Do you recall that, receiving something 22 like the database or -- 23 A. Yeah, there was a list of individuals . I 24 think they were just first names . 25 Q. Yeah, because I didn' t want the customer N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 96 1 last name in order to show because of private 2 privacy. The customer, you know, without their 3 permission just going ahead and (indiscernible) . 4 A. Yeah, but a list like that wouldn ' t 5 fulfill our needs as far as having been shown proof 6 of application and approvals, so a list of names is 7 a list of names . 8 Q. Yes . So you do want to have the paperwork 9 in present when you come for inspection and 10 application form and total number of current members 11 (indiscernible) ; am I right? 12 A. Yes . And I want to go back to the last 13 April visit . I wasn ' t angry. I don ' t get angry in 14 this work . I 've been doing it for over ten years . 15 All of my work is enforcement based, so it ' s not my 16 role to get angry with individuals, because if I 17 made it ugly it would unfortunately be ugly all the 18 time . So I try to make it as friendly as possible . 19 Q. So thank you. (Indiscernible) sometimes, 20 it' s just me . But I do want to ask you one, another 21 question. 22 Oh yes . Do you remember on that day I 23 told you that -- you mentioned right now that I ask 24 -- I told you that I 'm trying to change the old 25 system into the new system and I 'm adding Fivestar . N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 97 1 And you said, "Yeah, it' s not great option, but it 2 might work. " 3 So I was (indiscernible) , I just wanted to 4 let you know. Because you keep asking me, "What is 5 the current number of current membership, " and every 6 time I sent it to you, you have to kind of like do 7 it by yourself (indiscernible) and how many current 8 members , which is frustration. That' s why I don' t 9 want to giving it to you and I just wanted to show 10 you right there that this is the current number. 11 Would you agree with me that that' s 12 something, you know, you' re looking for or you 13 wanted me to do something, add something different? 14 Because I don' t know exactly how -- 15 A. Yeah, yeah . Definitely that was something 16 I was looking for . And then looking specifically at 17 the April inspection, I recall you looking directly 18 in my eye and saying, "Oh, I can ' t show you that 19 right now . " So I mean there was nothing that was 20 given to me to verify any type of inembership during 21 that inspection . 22 Q. But I show you Fivestar on that day? 23 A. (Indiscernible) . 24 Q. I recall showing you Fivestars . It shows 25 319 on my phone . N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 98 1 A. Was it in the April inspection? 2 Q. Yes . 3 A. Okay, if that ' s what you ' re saying then -- 4 Q. But I recall showing you a list of 5 (indiscernible) . 6 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: That was the time 7 your friends were over from (indiscernible) . 8 BY MS . KAZI : 9 Q. I believe you have some concern about the 10 charcoal that as being CO2 exposure to the, you 11 know, for you as, you know, part-time. How can I 12 make this better for you for your next visit? 13 A. Yeah, we do have concerns and we are 14 collecting information for that . You know, that ' s 15 not prohibiting any (indiscernible) . 16 MS . KAZI : And I believe during like -- I 17 believe that that ' s all the question I have . Thank 18 you . 19 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, thank you . 20 We are getting close to break, but Ms . 21 Clark did you have any redirect? 22 MS . CLARK: I do not . 23 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay. And was that 24 your final witness you said? 25 MS . CLARK: Yes . N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn #28884-1 Page 99 1 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, why don ' t we take 2 a ten-minute break at this point then? 3 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken. ) 4 HEARING EXAMINER: -- presentation . 5 So okay, Ms . Kazi, now it ' s your turn to 6 present your side of the story. Go ahead. 7 MS . KAZI : Sure, thank you . 8 I would like to actually, I have to call 9 my witness, right? 10 HEARING EXAMINER: Certainly, yeah. And 11 of course you can be a witness yourself . You can -- 12 yeah . 13 MS . KAZI : Thank you . I wanted to 14 actually first talk about my licensing. 15 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, sure . 16 MS . KAZI : Perfect . So this is, I would 17 like to instead of calling anyone, but if I have to 18 I ' ll confirm the accuracy that I can confirm it . 19 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, yeah . And of 20 course you ' re still under oath and I think you 21 understand that, right? 22 MS . KAZI : Yes, of course . 23 (Indiscernible) . 24 Okay, I believe the license, I 'm pretty 25 sure you have it in front of you and it shows that N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn#28884-1 Page 100 1 first I applied for this license in April 2015 . And 2 it shows that I applied it and it shows the timing 3 (indiscernible) . 4 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, which exhibit 5 number are you looking at? 6 MS . KAZI : Sorry, I don ' t have the exhibit 7 number, but I do have the application form that 8 looks like this . 9 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay. 10 MS . KAZI : (Indiscernible) . And the 11 license number is BL030904 . 12 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, go ahead. 13 MS . KAZI : Okay. That one I applied it 14 and when I received it I opened the business 15 (indiscernible) June 6th, 2015 with a state license 16 and city license . And I just wanted to mention on, 17 in August 10th I received a letter by -- and I 18 believe you have the exhibit, the letter . I 'm not 19 sure what the exhibit number is, but it ' s received 20 in -- okay, so this was in October 8th, 2015, I 21 (indiscernible) . 22 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay. 23 MS . KAZI : So we ' re talking about this 24 whole reason is the letter to the City and the City 25 response to my (indiscernible) . So I received that N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn#28884-1 Page 101 1 from saying that (indiscernible) or somebody saying 2 that they had mistakenly given me this license and 3 it was not supposed to be issued to me . And this 4 was after being in business for -- so I received my 5 license in April -- May, June, July, August, so 6 after three or four months later, I believe, and I 7 received after awhile and it said it was given to me 8 by mistake . 9 So I asked why and I went to the City and 10 I asked them why, (indiscernible) mistake when she 11 would give somebody a license and they will purchase 12 anything they need to to start their business and 13 they' re already struggling with their other 14 business . I had a restaurant during that time 15 (indiscernible) and I was very struggling. 16 So it was very much really bad situation where I ' m 17 trying to make money as much as I can to afford be 18 in a business when that ' s just so much 19 (indiscernible) . And I asked them why is that 20 decision was like that and the response was because 21 the City of Seattle mayor decided to shut down all 22 the hookah lounges in Seattle . 23 And I said, "Okay, what this is has 24 nothing to do with my business . " I 'm not in Seattle 25 and my name was not (indiscernible) , eleven hookah N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn#28884-1 Page 102 1 lounges and I 'm operating without having any 2 violations with, you know, crime or anything like 3 that and so why just like that . And they said, 4 "Because we are following the City of Seattle idea 5 of how, whatever decision they make . " So I said, 6 "Okay, but I really need to, you know, I cannot do 7 this . You know, I really need you to let me do 8 this . " 9 And so I believe somebody (indiscernible) 10 or someone told me, because usually I have -- I 11 speak with Mrs . Linda, (indiscernible) , nobody else . 12 So I believe she told me, "Go ahead and 13 (indiscernible) with Donna Locher and she ' s in 14 Zoning Department . Speak with her, see what she 15 says . If she approves it then you are good to go . " 16 And I said, Okay, no problem. " 17 So I contacted Donna Locher and I 18 personally met with her, somewhere probably in 19 (indiscernible) -- okay, yes, I met with her maybe 20 in October or maybe in August . I 'm not sure, but 21 somewhere in between in 2015 I met with her and 22 explained to her . And she said, "Go ahead and write 23 this letter . " And this letter, I send it out to 24 Administration (indiscernible) , I believe, and it 25 was October 8th, 2015, explaining to me that my N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn#28884-1 Page 103 1 operation of the hours and then I told him that what 2 hookah is, you know, (indiscernible) customer just, 3 you know, follow the lunch rule, that we would be 4 selling beverage, membership, hookah and 5 (indiscernible) collecting tobacco piece . You know, 6 I will be the one who ' s actually running the show . 7 And (indiscernible) I was inspected by the Renton 8 Fire Department and, you know, I had been inspected 9 by also Health Department previous and I know the 10 rules of the hookah regulation of the lounge, what 11 we need to do in order to be in business, basic 12 rules (indiscernible) memberships are collected. It 13 was never before (indiscernible) have to keep paper 14 (indiscernible) . 15 So that ' s something they came up with 16 after they made the health official, health official 17 made their official agreement or settlement with the 18 11 hookah lounges, ' 15 or ' 16, somewhere around 19 there . I don ' t have the exact date, but they made 20 the settlement that they would have to be more 21 private and they have to follow the guidelines . 22 But before it was not like that . Before 23 we had a very simple way that you just collect 24 membership and you have -- when they come they can 25 see the names and the membership being collected N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn#28884-1 Page 104 1 that you have people just not walk in, but actually 2 paying for membership (indiscernible) . And once a 3 year you pay for it for a whole year, so a person 4 can purchase a membership (indiscernible) full year . 5 Right now it ' s every quarter . 6 So, and you have to have a paper and 7 present application for which was not like that 8 before . So I 'm very familiar with the whole process 9 and I did what is the old process . So I told him 10 that that ' s why I know, I know how to do this 11 business and please let me open the business and let 12 me be in business . I 'm already open . Let me be in 13 the business because it ' s explained that I have 14 applied and received this license to operate the 15 business in June lst which is probably April, not -- 16 mistake who wrote it . 17 But I received this letter from you that 18 my licensing has been denied. It was inadvertently 19 like mistaken (indiscernible) . So I said that I 20 spoke with Ms . Donna Locher and explained to her, 21 you know, this is what I need and I 'm going through 22 a lot . And you know regardless what is the issue 23 with the City with Seattle, you know, at least give 24 me a chance . So after that it was fine . It was 25 everything was fine . N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn#28884-1 Page 105 1 So the time became the next 2 (indiscernible) 16 which is my (indiscernible) renew 3 my license . And I wanted to go renew my license and 4 I believe it was in April to review my license or 5 March, something around there, because it was not, 6 it was when you actually apply for a license and you 7 get it and then it ' s (indiscernible) . It was like 8 that before . It ' s since changed. Anyway so I went 9 there and I went to renew my license . 10 And when I tried to renew my license, you 11 know, there was again another problem. So the 12 problem now raises whether or not hookah lounge is 13 allowed in (indiscernible) city or this or that 14 because there was another hookah lounge and there 15 was a lot of problem with the lounge over there . 16 (Indiscernible) I was told because the City can ' t 17 decide right now whether or not they can have a 18 lounge because the City of Seattle they ' re still 19 fighting on this matter and still going on with no 20 decision was made . 21 And because that no decision was made, I 22 would like -- we cannot just have you just use 23 whatever product you want . It has to be tobacco- 24 free . So I said okay, so because the City don ' t 25 allow in Seattle to have a hookah lounge, that is N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn#28884-1 Page 106 1 the only option I can be and remain in business, 2 have this kind of thing, right . So they said yes, 3 so that ' s why I gave out this paper . 4 But then the rule of the City mayor 5 decided that you cannot go against what is heritage, 6 what is where you ' re coming from. So Shisha is 7 traditionally made like that to have it . It ' s if 8 you talk about hookah this is what (indiscernible) . 9 You cannot just smoke something else . You cannot -- 10 just like the lawyer on the other side say, you 11 cannot tell a coffee shop to sell only tea but not 12 coffee, because their main point of their business 13 is coffee . So you cannot ask them to only sell tea . 14 So those kind of (indiscernible) was going on and 15 this definitely an attack on our culture and race 16 and everything else . 17 So the City of Seattle decided okay, we 18 will have (indiscernible) . That ' s why they decided 19 to make the settlement and make sure this kind of 20 things doesn ' t happen ever again to be in the 21 business . So that ' s what had happened. And then I 22 went ahead, so when the next year came I went, 2017 23 I went and I got my new license . 24 Now this time, my license, I changed 25 everything. It was a different license . I got my N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn#28884-1 Page 107 1 tobacco license . I received from the State, from 2 the tobacco company, everything. So basically I 3 went from sole Kazi ' s Hookah Lounge to LLC to 4 tobacco license and everything that needed to be 5 done . And then I also go ahead in April 6 (indiscernible) . 7 And I went and I (indiscernible) and this 8 time my new license is actually different . Right 9 now I don ' t have any more BL038904 . There is no 10 more of that . I received BL041328 in March 2017 . 11 So this was a new license from the City of Renton, 12 so want to explain the whole processing what I went 13 through with this frustration . At the same time I 14 was issued one license I was giving up license in 15 2015 (indiscernible) . So I received my license in 16 2015 (indiscernible) . Here it is, a copy of it, if 17 you don ' t have it . So issued it June 6th, 2016, 18 that ' s an expired by 2017 (indiscernible) . 19 And so I would like to next talk about 20 (indiscernible) to Ms . Linda Welton, some of the 21 portion that she has (indiscernible) about 22 advertisement and reviews and other stuff . So I 23 read the law for the advertisement for tobacco, 24 tobacco law in United States (indiscernible) . Okay, 25 so this says permitting the use or sell of tobacco N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn#28884-1 Page 108 1 product including advertisement of any 2 (indiscernible) other stuff . 3 So it has to basically what the law is 4 saying, let ' s say you have a belly dancer or a 5 picture or something and there ' s a tobacco product 6 name on there . So I believe that hookah is 7 instruments . When people look at hookah it could be 8 anything. It could be, you know, not tobacco 9 hookah. It could be tobacco . I 'm pretty sure a 10 hookah is (indiscernible) . 11 And the page that are on there, it ' s our 12 business page, it ' s not promoting on just anywhere . 13 So one person if you were to look for a hookah 14 lounge, okay, so the first thing you ' re going to do, 15 Yelp . Go to Yelp, type hookah lounge in area or 16 hookah lounge in (indiscernible) . That ' s the way 17 you will see it, otherwise you cannot really see 18 where the hookah lounge is . If you ' re looking for a 19 specific thing then you can find it . 20 There ' s no advertising outside like a 21 logo, smoke, you know, on the building, smoke, or 22 like we sell marijuana, 21 and marijuana sign like 23 that . You don ' t (indiscernible) . My sign, Kazi is 24 also my last name . It does not represent any kind 25 of tobacco or brand. Having a hookah in the N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn#28884-1 Page 109 1 background is not -- it ' s a culture . Everybody' s 2 aware of it that in Middle East we smoke hookah and 3 there ' s belly dancer . It ' s been happening for 4 generations . This is just the culture . 5 So I would say that that ' s just how it is . 6 Just like you have the whiskey and a big cigar or 7 you can have a (indiscernible) , this is something 8 that is just a culture . There ' s no tobacco was 9 advertised in any official media, any official 10 social places like Facebook. We don ' t mention about 11 we carry (indiscernible) , we carry (indiscernible) 12 brand. We did not mention the brand of tobacco at 13 all . So it ' s not there . 14 And other thing is I wanted to mention 15 that tobacco product means any product that contain 16 tobacco . That ' s what it ' s saying. There was no 17 (indiscernible) anything kind of advertisement . 18 Things are only out for people to know what kind of 19 business are we, so if you ' re a hookah lounge and 20 they' re looking for a hookah lounge, a person 21 looking for strictly a hookah lounge they can find 22 your hours . Okay, what time do you open, what time 23 you close, so they can make their (indiscernible) so 24 they can go there . 25 What kind of atmosphere is that because N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn#28884-1 Page 110 1 some people like crazy, you know, crazy place, some 2 people like very relaxing place . Everybody has 3 their own way. What kind of music style do you 4 like? We play very low music, very low, like you 5 can ' t even hear it . You can have -- you can do your 6 homework, laptop work, office work, Microsoft work. 7 You can make advertisement, whatever you need to do 8 in that place . You have people from Shark Tank come 9 there, the Microsoft people, a lot of business owner 10 comes there . 11 We have pilots (indiscernible) comes there 12 after getting off from their flight . So we have a 13 bunch of different kind of people that comes there . 14 We have almost (indiscernible) mayor of Bellevue . 15 He was also nominated. He comes there . He ' s always 16 frustrated the fact that he has to drive so much 17 from Redmond to Renton . And all these people are 18 coming, they' re complaining, "Hey, Shadika, why 19 don ' t you open in Redmond when you ' re ready. " 20 I mean we ' re really always struggling with 21 one lounge and they want us to be more closer to 22 them. And this is something they' re always, you 23 know, they have to wait in (indiscernible) traffic 24 but they come and they complain . But it ' s okay. 25 They've been coming for a half a year, this is -- N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn#28884-1 Page 111 1 they don ' t want to go anywhere else . This is what 2 they like . 3 And we don ' t do sampling . I think the law 4 mentioned about sampling . It doesn ' t have any smoke 5 sign around it . There ' s, if the billboard says 6 hookah (indiscernible) it does not say about the 7 brand, I believe, because brand would be a tobacco 8 brand, (indiscernible) or something familiar with 9 that . 10 These are the people get impacted from not 11 having hookah lounges . Many people fought for it . 12 Especially I 've been a hookah smoker for the last 13 ten years . (Indiscernible) . This is something hard 14 for me (indiscernible) . 15 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay. And since we 16 just have a tape recording, this isn ' t video tape, 17 just want to point out you were showing a photograph 18 of a crowd of people . That ' s not in your exhibits, 19 right . I didn ' t see that in the exhibits . 20 MS . KAZI : This was in 2015 . 21 HEARING EXAMINER: Yeah, a picture of -- 22 that ' s of your patrons, people who go to -- your 23 members that go to your hookah lounge; is that 24 right? 25 MS . KAZI : No, no, no . N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn#28884-1 Page 112 1 HEARING EXAMINER: Oh, I 'm sorry. 2 MS . KAZI : No, I just wanted to show how 3 many people were affected. They fought for the 4 rights of for the hookah lounge (indiscernible) . 5 HEARING EXAMINER: Oh, I see, other hookah 6 lounge owners and -- okay, got it . Got it . 7 MS . KAZI : In City Hall, yes . 8 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay. 9 MS . KAZI : And I wanted to also talk about 10 a lot of other stuff . Okay, so that was that . We 11 covered that, the (indiscernible) areas and stuff . 12 I think there was some portion about 13 whether or not police were there and comments that 14 we ' re staffed and friendly staff like that . So I 15 have -- I don ' t have employees like that but I have 16 friends who are always there so they make their own 17 hookah. They' re walking around and they go inside, 18 outside, they' re playing games . They' re 19 (indiscernible) . They don ' t tell me 20 (indiscernible) . They' re doing themselves because 21 this is (indiscernible) , you know, they make their 22 own hookah . 23 Just like customer, you know, we discussed 24 about customer can go ahead and make their own 25 hookah so then that ' s fine . Whoever doesn ' t want to N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn#28884-1 Page 113 1 make their hookah and, you know, I make it . So what 2 I 'm saying everybody can, you know, be inside and 3 outside . You know, every time a lot of people are 4 inside in the back, the other time a lot of people 5 are in the living area . 6 I 'm sorry . I have -- so things like that 7 happens . So a lot of our customer might think, you 8 know, they work there but it ' s not true . It ' s not 9 they' re working there, but, you know, like 10 (indiscernible) people like to say stuff, you know, 11 friend stuff . It could just be one person, but they 12 want to refer it as (indiscernible) . That ' s how it 13 is . You cannot just go on what people say with 14 their word, you know, it ' s just everybody can, 15 anyone can say anything . 16 That ' s what I 'm saying. (Indiscernible) 17 everybody ' s nice or not nice, like security 18 (indiscernible) , we make sure security knows who 19 should be coming in the lounge and who shouldn ' t be . 20 And our opinion is very (indiscernible) . It ' s very 21 important that security knows what ' s going on 22 because if the security doesn ' t know what ' s going 23 on, then we all could be in trouble . Security 24 should know what ' s going on outside of the lounge . 25 Who is driving by, who is hanging out unless they ' re N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn#28884-1 Page 114 1 talking for more than ten minutes . 2 Because I was told by some, a 3 (indiscernible) crime prevention for Renton City, 4 she was, she told me that, you know, you have 5 security, tell him to always pay attention, walk 6 around the lot, make sure everything is fine, watch 7 everybody . After she told me that I make sure I 8 always keep in touch with her . So I always been 9 going back and forth with her to make sure if I see 10 something I expect it, I report to, "Hey, you know, 11 I seen this person was keep looking through my 12 window. I 'm not sure who this is, could you please 13 have somebody supervision business for awhile until 14 this matter ' s solved. " 15 And I have those emails too that I 16 actually contacted her making sure that she knows 17 that, you know, everything is fine . She ' s always 18 been generous about it that how I am actually honest 19 on top of everything. But it only happened one 20 time . I only ask one year . I only contacted her 21 one time about this person that I thought was just 22 driving by looking at my business . 23 So the security told me this is what ' s 24 happening . I looked it up, this is what ' s 25 happening . We called her right away. So other than N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn#28884-1 Page 115 1 that last from one year, we only make four calls to 2 9-1-1 . First one, there was a homeless person who 3 actually enter, try to get inside the building. And 4 we told him we ' re closed and he wouldn ' t leave, so 5 he climbed up (indiscernible) and he tried to get 6 inside so we called the 9-1-1 . And police came and 7 they called the Fire Department and they came out, 8 and police were very laughing and happy about that . 9 So yeah, anyways, and the other two times 10 was a drunk person came to the lounge and we told 11 him we don ' t expect anybody who ' s drunk come into 12 the lounge . If you ' re drunk you need to leave . And 13 both of those times there was people who didn ' t 14 wanted to leave so we had to call the police . And 15 the other time there was four people in the parking 16 lot fighting for two minutes . We called the police, 17 but before that they already left which is couple 18 minutes . Other than that we don ' t make any call . 19 Even before that, even before that year we 20 make lots of calls to 9-1-1 and there was a reason 21 for it we called so many times . Every time I tell 22 people don ' t be outside and they' re outside, I call 23 the 9-1-1 . If I 'm telling you to leave the property 24 and you ' re not doing it, I ' ll call the police . That 25 was my thing. So I called many times to make sure N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn#28884-1 Page 116 1 my parking lot is clear out and people are always 2 sitting. 3 There are people that I don ' t know. There 4 are people that come into the lounge, but there are 5 people that I don ' t know (indiscernible) . So I make 6 sure I call (indiscernible) this time I can to have 7 these people don ' t do this . I show them, "Hey, this 8 is not something you can do over here . " Maybe some 9 other people would be okay with it, but not me . So 10 that ' s how it is with me . 11 And I take very serious about things . And 12 right now, you go in my parking lot there ' s not even 13 a mosquito would be walking by because it ' s clean 14 and clear . So that ' s how we make sure of the -- we 15 take notes, tell them anything from the City and we 16 try to improve as much as we can . Sometimes it 17 takes a long time, the most important things 18 mandatory to us than the least important things . 19 I understand, you know, there was letter 20 came to my house, keep paying for sign, you know, 21 for paying for the outside sign and I was not doing 22 it . The reason I was not doing it because I was so 23 busy with so many other things that I couldn ' t get 24 to it . You know, every time -- yes, I would. I 25 wanted to take it out, take out the sign from N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn#28884-1 Page 117 1 (indiscernible) , previous business of mine, but 2 there ' s no time . And I paid $900 in 2016 because of 3 those signs . And this is something that, you know, 4 you learn from your mistake and happened. So 5 eventually I do get out (indiscernible) . 6 Then I wanted to talk to you, everybody -- 7 I 'm sorry . I want to talk about, still, about 8 employee things, about some other laws in Washington 9 State is talking about vapor law, how vapor lounge 10 and vapor (indiscernible) has increased. If we go 11 to vapor establishments it ' s the future of vapor . 12 There ' s lots of employees and the law passed on it 13 that you can actually smoke vapor in front of a 14 customer including his smoke inhale, while they' re 15 still selling vapor . 16 So vapor is like (indiscernible) that is 17 new. It ' s smoking. It ' s a cigarette . You can put 18 nicotine . You can put whatever (indiscernible) as 19 you want or random person goes to that shop and you 20 don ' t just purchase the vapor, you can actually 21 smoke while you ' re there and there ' s employees 22 working there . And there ' s a lounge also so you can 23 try a flavor, and employees probably smoking 16 24 nicotine, 16 percent of nicotine, 40 percent of 25 nicotine or who knows how much percentage . So N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn#28884-1 Page 118 1 that ' s something is okay with the law that you can 2 actually (indiscernible) and the customer and the 3 employees can vapor in front of each other . So 4 that ' s fine with the law. 5 And I wanted to mention something about 6 how, why is the law so strict -- the law is so 7 strict with the hookah lounge in Washington State, 8 however, the City is because of the crime and the 9 violation and what happens . The thing is, last one 10 year there was only four incident . There was three 11 doesn ' t even count with me because (indiscernible) . 12 We have (indiscernible) them out where they used to 13 give you service, and the other person was homeless 14 guy who wouldn ' t be a potential threat for us . 15 So this whole time and, you know, as much 16 as that ' s what I know. But, you know, obviously we 17 can, nothing major happened that we can actually, 18 you know, think, okay, this is so dangerous 19 business . Nothing like that happened. The thing 20 is, the dangers it becomes what kind of people 21 comes . People can die anywhere . They can die in a 22 school . They can die in a gas station . They can 23 die from their house . If somebody' s targeted it 24 doesn ' t matter where they' re at, they will die . 25 (Indiscernible) N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn#28884-1 Page 119 1 So that ' s covered, the complaints, the 2 vapor law how the United States is allowing the 3 vapor and there ' s no decision on hookah lounges from 4 the State or from the City. I wanted to talk about 5 other state law with the hookah lounges . There are 6 many different states hookah lounges are respected, 7 actually, and here ' s the law from the other states . 8 HEARING EXAMINER: Ms . Kazi, just so you 9 understand, I have to follow Washington law. I 10 don ' t have any authority to say -- 11 MS . KAZI : Okay. 12 HEARING EXAMINER: -- that Washington law 13 is unfair and can ' t apply it . Yeah, that ' s the 14 difference between me and judges . I have no 15 authority to invalidate city ordinances or state 16 law. If you were to appeal my decision to a court 17 they could say it, you know, unfairly discriminates 18 against your customs and heritage and that kind of 19 thing. 20 But that ' s -- I just have to follow the 21 letter of the law unfortunately, so . Yeah, just 22 keep that in mind in your arguments . 23 MS . KAZI : Okay. Okay, I 'm sorry. 24 HEARING EXAMINER: Oh no, that ' s fine . 25 MS . KAZI : The other thing I wanted to N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn#28884-1 Page 120 1 talk about already mentioned that many people 2 (indiscernible) city and the state to hookah 3 lounges, the lounge from different city . So 4 definitely is beneficial for the Renton city, I 5 believe, because these customers, clients they stop 6 at the gas station or they stop in a Coke place or 7 to get gas or do some shopping. So many people are 8 coming to Renton city also could, you know, want to 9 point out that also benefiting the city or local 10 businesses . That ' s what I believe . So that ' s that . 11 And okay, I believe there was concern 12 about my sister being there, (indiscernible) . She ' s 13 right here and behind me and she actually works for 14 (indiscernible) ? 15 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yeah. 16 MS . KAZI : TSI . And she has a baby. He ' s 17 3 years old. She comes smoke with us sometimes at 18 the lounge . She ' s not a very (indiscernible) 19 person, back in the days, yes . But she comes 20 sometimes , smoke (indiscernible, and she take care 21 of her son . I think that ' s what she does . You 22 know, she was there while he was there, and while I 23 was talking to him she saw the customer needed help 24 and she thought she would just go and help him out . 25 And that ' s what she did and because still a family N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn#28884-1 Page 121 1 business no matter what, so (indiscernible) . 2 So I think, I believe I am, you know, 3 doing as much as I can to, you know, comply with 4 everything. Obviously if I have some things I need 5 to improve on I will (indiscernible) that . Concern 6 from the, you know, through friends and everything, 7 those kinds of things . But I believe like I 'm doing 8 as much as I can but obviously everybody makes 9 mistakes in some way or another . 10 The other thing I wanted to talk about -- 11 so yeah, I think that ' s pretty much what I wanted to 12 talk about . Yeah, so . 13 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay. Ms . Clark, did 14 you have any questions of Ms . Kazi? 15 MS . CLARK: I just had one question . 16 EXAMINATION 17 BY MS . CLARK: 18 Q. When you described the process in 2015 how 19 you first received the business license and received 20 a notice that it had been issued in mistake, at any 21 time did the City ever force the business to close 22 down? 23 A. No, because we -- no, we didn ' t . 24 MS . CLARK: Okay, thank you . That was my 25 question . N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn#28884-1 Page 122 1 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, I just had a few 2 myself . 3 EXAMINATION 4 BY HEARING EXAMINER: 5 Q. So currently how many people are paid to 6 help operate your business when people are there 7 smoking the hookah? I mean there ' s security guards , 8 is there anyone else that' s paid to serve drinks or 9 do anything else at the business? 10 A. So it ' s me, Victor, the security. 11 Q. Okay. 12 A. That ' s pretty much it . 13 Q. And is the security person, did you make 14 the security person a partner, did you say, or is 15 that just Victor? 16 A. No, he ' s not a partner yet . 17 Q. Okay, all right. You say yet, are you 18 going to make him a partner? 19 A. No . 20 Q. Okay, all right. And then your partner, 21 is he like -- does he get like a percentage of the 22 revenues or how do you pay your partner? 23 A. He does get a percentage from the 24 business . 25 Q. Okay. And could you fire him if you N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn#28884-1 Page 123 1 wanted to or? 2 A. No . I would never fire him. Either it ' s 3 determined between me and (indiscernible) some 4 other, you know, way that he could (indiscernible) . 5 Q. Okay. 6 A. So it ' s something between me and him that 7 we actually talk about it to make sure everything ' s 8 fine . 9 Q. Okay. So the only people that are 10 essentially running the lounge then is you, Victor 11 and the security people . There ' s no one else that ' s 12 paid to take care of it? I take it you must have 13 like maid service that comes in at night or 14 something? 15 A. Yes . I do have sometimes work at cleaning 16 the lounge, I ' ll hire somebody to clean 17 (indiscernible) , you know, I ' ll contractor it out . 18 Sometimes something break down, like you have your 19 carpet needs to be cleaned out, so all the carpeting 20 (indiscernible) , the whole carpet . Or sometimes you 21 will need to clean the outside and you call 22 (indiscernible) . 23 Q. Okay. 24 A. So (indiscernible) disgusting and you have 25 those kinds of things taken care of that N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn#28884-1 Page 124 1 (indiscernible) . 2 Q. And so there ' s a kitchen. I mean what do 3 you serve, is it just beverages or what else? 4 A. So what I mean is like my kitchen, 5 regardless of anything else we have a big kitchen . 6 So sometimes I have to get Saturdays because I have 7 two hood, right, so the Fire Department wants me to 8 service (indiscernible) or the exhaust system. 9 Q. Oh, hoods . Okay. 10 A. They want to get all the -- yeah, 11 regardless you take it out or away or you service 12 them. So those people, the service company come and 13 do it and make sure the exhaust fan is working 14 properly, is cleaning, (indiscernible) make sure 15 they -- 16 Q. Okay. So in terms of food and beverages, 17 you' re just serving beverages not food; is that 18 correct? 19 A. Yes . 20 Q. Okay. 21 A. But I do want to eventually -- the Health 22 Department is, you know, is allow food, because I 23 heard from the Liquor Department told me that you 24 can serve alcohol (indiscernible) . 25 Q. Okay. So who serves the drinks then? Who N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn#28884-1 Page 125 1 makes and serves the drinks? Is that you and 2 Victor? 3 A. We have canned soda, so -- 4 Q. Pardon? 5 A. Everything has can involved. 6 Q. Oh, so people just take it themselves or 7 you get it for them, okay. 8 Now, and just so I understand the 9 membership process correctly, so if someone wants to 10 be -- someone can' t go in your lounge unless they' re 11 a member. And if they want to be a member they have 12 to fill out a form and then they have to wait 24 13 hours and then they become a member, right? And the 14 sole criteria is just that they' re the right age, is 15 that right? 16 A. So this is something that the Health 17 Department came to see me when he said you have to 18 wait 24 hours to go through this whole process and 19 everything. That ' s not something that the State 20 require, from the State of Washington, That ' s 21 something the settlement between the 11 hookah 22 lounges in Seattle (indiscernible) that you have to 23 wait for 24 hours . 24 I 'm sure (indiscernible) people are not 25 liking it, something that have to follow. The N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn#28884-1 Page 126 1 reason is first you ' re taking individual right to 2 smoke . If I want to smoke now I come from 3 (indiscernible) . 4 Q. No, I just want to find out what your 5 process , it' s not why you' re doing it. But so if 6 someone who wants to be a member in your lounge they 7 can only get inside if you accept them as a member, 8 and to become a member they have to fill out a form 9 and wait 24 hours , and basically if they ' re over 18 10 they can -- 11 A. Yes . 12 Q. -- they' re made a member. 13 A. Yes . 14 Q. That' s what it boils down to, okay. 15 A. You can have those (indiscernible) the 16 lounge as well . 17 Q. Okay, okay. 18 A. You have to have 18 no matter what . 19 That ' s Washington State law, you have to show ID. 20 Q. Okay, all right. And so in terms of the 21 people that are paid to work at your business, right 22 now it' s just security guards , you and Victor. Were 23 you paying anyone else before? I mean is this 24 something recent that these are the only paid people 25 for your business or is that been how your business N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn#28884-1 Page 127 1 has been operated for the last few years? 2 A. Yeah. So I used to pay myself before 3 because I used to do all the work before 4 (indiscernible) . 5 Q. Oh, okay. So since 2015 , ' 16 , the only 6 people paid have been you, Victor and the security 7 guard; is that right? 8 A. Victor just came recently. 9 Q. Oh, okay. 10 A. Before it was just me when we used to work 11 from 11 or 10 o ' clock in the morning to until 1 12 o ' clock at night . 13 Q. I see . I see. 14 A. Sometimes try to call (indiscernible) . 15 Q. Okay. And so what do you -- do people, I 16 guess what do people pay for when they go to your 17 lounge? Do they pay for, you know, for like for the 18 hour of smoking or for the tobacco products you give 19 them or how does that work? 20 A. No, it ' s not by hours because hours is 21 limited, like you don ' t charge by hours . 22 (Indiscernible) hookah which is 15 to $40 -- 23 Q. I see . 24 A. -- you know, if they don ' t have membership 25 they pay for that and stuff like that . They get N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn#28884-1 Page 128 1 refills, you know, and some people smoke by 2 themselves or various like don ' t like to share with 3 somebody. Some people they like to share with 4 another person . Some people should share with -- 5 Q. I see . 6 A. -- (indiscernible) person . So it really 7 depends on what they want to do . We have a rule you 8 cannot have more than three people at same hookah 9 because then we don ' t make money. So people, you 10 know, people are there . People are there from 11 early, from 4 o ' clock until 9 o ' clock, 10 o ' clock 12 sometimes, doing their job, work, you know -- 13 Q. Right. 14 A. -- on paper . 15 Q. Okay. 16 A. Or some people just like to be, this is 17 their second home . 18 Q. I see . 19 A. Instead of being in the house . 20 Q. Yeah. 21 A. So they, you know, this is, that ' s what 22 they do . 23 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, understood. 24 Ms . Clark, did you have any questions in 25 light of my questions or -- N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn#28884-1 Page 129 1 EXAMINATION 2 BY MS . CLARK: 3 Q. It sounds like so when someone comes to 4 the door and they don' t have a membership what 5 happens? 6 A. So we ask them to make a membership 7 (indiscernible) . 8 Q. And then what happens from there? 9 A. So they fill out the application and then 10 so we give them (indiscernible) 24 hours unless you 11 have (indiscernible) , somebody (indiscernible) part 12 of the lounge or you 've been to another lounge, you 13 have to (indiscernible) . (Indiscernible) we have to 14 like, sorry, you know. And they get offensive, some 15 people get offensive, some people just let it go . 16 And people, we show them the 17 (indiscernible) and make them understand 18 (indiscernible) . You can see a lot of the comments 19 in Yelp and Facebook that says (indiscernible) they 20 charge membership $5 . This is something 21 (indiscernible) . 22 MS . CLARK: Okay. 23 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay. Did you have any 24 other witnesses, Ms . Kazi, other than yourself? 25 MS . KAZI : I have some videos, talks about N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn#28884-1 Page 130 1 some, you know, it kind of shows what people 2 (indiscernible) and talk about their experience and 3 how much they appreciate it, if that ' s okay to show. 4 HEARING EXAMINER: How long would they, 5 how long are the videos? 6 MS . KAZI : A couple minutes probably, 7 three or four minutes . 8 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay. And did you 9 submit them in advance to the City Attorney? Okay, 10 all right . We ' ll go ahead and show it . 11 I think we ' ll have to make those exhibits 12 then . Let ' s see, I think, let ' s see A-17 or, excuse 13 me, A-18 will be the videos . 14 (WHEREUPON, videos were marked as Exhibit 15 A-18 (sic) for identification. ) 16 HEARING EXAMINER: And any objections, Ms . 17 Clark, or? 18 MS . CLARK: I don ' t know if I have an 19 objection . 20 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, see it first? 21 MS . CLARK: I don ' t -- 22 HEARING EXAMINER: Yeah, I -- 23 MS . CLARK: -- (indiscernible) found on 24 that . So on the date that exhibits were due I 25 received a series of 23 emails, some attaching one N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn#28884-1 Page 131 1 file, some attaching multiple files . If I printed 2 them all I believe it would have exceeded 1, 000 3 pages . None of it was numbered, none of it was 4 labeled. I don ' t recall having two videos, and I so 5 I don ' t know if I object to these videos, and I may. 6 So I reserve the right to object and I 7 don ' t yet agree to admit them. 8 MS . KAZI : Okay, I actually listed those 9 videos (indiscernible) . 10 HEARING EXAMINER: In any one of your 11 emails to Ms . Clark; is that right? Okay. 12 MS . CLARK: I believe that I understand. 13 And so there were witnesses who were listed as 14 possibly testifying by video, yes . 15 HEARING EXAMINER: Oh . 16 MS . CLARK: Definitely received the 17 disclosure of witnesses . However, now I 'm more 18 confident that I did not receive actual videos . 19 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, oh . Hm. 20 MS . KAZI : So I 'm not sure if necessary 21 just the video is to send it out or should I, you 22 know, I should show the video, but any 23 (indiscernible) videos would be a testimony 24 (indiscernible) . 25 MS . CLARK: As long as I have the N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn#28884-1 Page 132 1 opportunity to object after seeing the video, I 'm 2 fine with it (indiscernible) . 3 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, yeah, because the 4 other way is that she can send the videos to you and 5 then you can review it . And then if you ' re okay 6 with it then I can review it afterwards . We can 7 just wrap that up through email after today. 8 MS . CLARK: I 'm perfectly comfortable, 9 again if I can object after . 10 HEARING EXAMINER: Yeah, yeah . Why don ' t 11 we, just because we ' re closing in on the 5 o ' clock 12 hour, why don ' t we say -- Ms . Kazi, if you could 13 send those videos to Ms . Clark and we ' ll see if Ms . 14 Clark has any objections . And if it ' s all hunky- 15 dory and there are no objections or if I overrule 16 her objections, then I ' ll look at the videos myself 17 afterwards then . How' s that? 18 MS . KAZI : (Indiscernible) . 19 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, all right . We ' ll 20 do it that way. Just anything else you want to 21 present? 22 Ms . Kazi, any -- 23 MS . KAZI : Oh . No, I believe I 24 (indiscernible) . 25 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, all right . Yeah, N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn#28884-1 Page 133 1 so when we get to the end of the hearing today, 2 remind me . We ' ll set up deadlines for you to send 3 the videos to Ms . Clark and see if Ms . Clark has any 4 objections . She can view them and then afterwards 5 I ' ll probably view them. 6 So, all right, let ' s see . And you said 7 you didn ' t -- no other witnesses then, so other than 8 your video ones? 9 MS . KAZI : I don ' t have any witnesses, but 10 I do want to mention that this is very important for 11 our culture and very important for our people, very 12 important for this whole (indiscernible) . It ' s very 13 important in their life the hookah, what it means to 14 them and they appreciate the business . They 15 appreciate that we are there for them. 16 They appreciate that they come and have a 17 great hookah experience (indiscernible) having a bad 18 hookah experience somewhere else . And not only that 19 they appreciate, the customer appreciate that our 20 lounge is very nice and relaxing. Some of those 21 lounges where if they have to go through many 22 problems, there are, you know, as we can see many 23 hookah lounges they don ' t know how to control their 24 business where they have to check people to let them 25 in . This kind of thing, other hookah lounges just N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn#28884-1 Page 134 1 cannot maintain it . 2 And I believe I am doing as much as to 3 make sure that we really find out, keep an eye on 4 customers (indiscernible) , find out customers ' 5 action and interest in customer . And if it doesn ' t 6 work out we tell them it ' s not the place for them. 7 So this is what we ' ve been doing and I think, you 8 know, any business if you don ' t know how to control 9 your business obviously you ' re not meant for it . 10 So, and those customers they appreciate it a lot . 11 This is very important that they come from work, 12 they leave from their work, at 2 o ' clock they come 13 to come and smoke hookah and enjoy, get out their 14 laptop . I have some pictures . They' re always 15 working and they show everything is fine . And this 16 is to them very appreciation . 17 That ' s as much as I can tell you . It ' s 18 appreciation for me also because I can meet with 19 many different culture people . I can meet with 20 people who are older than me, younger than me, who 21 are in the mid-age . I mean everybody. And we talk 22 about lives and we talk about what ' s politics . We 23 talk about everything in life general . 24 And, you know, everybody talk about what 25 they' re going through or how happy they are or is N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn#28884-1 Page 135 1 it ' s a (indiscernible) gathering place and it ' s very 2 important because you don ' t get to see this 3 anywhere . And you can have a little wine bar and 4 have a wine and eventually you ' ll get drunk and get 5 into car . And see, it ' s not same thing with hookah, 6 it doesn ' t make you drunk. You aren ' t drunk. 7 You ' re not in stable mind and you cannot 8 do your business work when you (indiscernible) . 9 It ' s definitely something, regardless you can take 10 it or do it here or are they going to do it at their 11 house . If they do it at the house they ' re exposing 12 it to secondhand smoke for sure because the 13 atmosphere they are in, their wife maybe not liking 14 it or the kids they ' re surrounded by and they' re 15 exposed to that . 16 You know, when I was little, when my dad 17 was had smoked he used to smoke cigarette six times 18 a day. And eventually when I was 7 or 8 I stole a 19 cigarette from him (indiscernible) . Yes, and I did 20 that because I wanted to know why he smoking certain 21 thing, and after that I didn ' t because I didn ' t like 22 it . 23 But my point is, regardless if you, you 24 rather do something like this , smoking in a place 25 where you don ' t show it to minors, your business is N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn#28884-1 Page 136 1 not showing it to minors . Minors are not seeing it 2 in the school or inside the house or in an event . 3 You ' re doing it at closed place where nobody knows 4 what is your mom doing or what is your dad doing or 5 what is your cousins doing, you know, they do it, 6 that ' s it . 7 You know, regardless (indiscernible) you 8 want to find out later that you want to find out 9 now. So that ' s what I wanted to say. 10 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, thank you . Thank 11 you . 12 All right, Ms . Clark. You get to rebuttal 13 there, any rebuttal evidence? And we have separate 14 closings, don ' t forget . 15 MS . CLARK: Yeah. We don ' t have, the City 16 does not have any rebuttal . 17 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, all right . Okay. 18 And Ms . Kazi, I didn ' t stop you . It 19 sounds like you just made your closing comments and 20 that ' s fine . I didn ' t want to interrupt you . But 21 we did have a separate closing argument and now you 22 get a closing argument . It sounds like you just 23 made it though . 24 Was there anything you wanted to add to 25 your closing comments? It was well said what you N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn#28884-1 Page 137 1 said. 2 MS . KAZI : Thank you . 3 HEARING EXAMINER: So okay, you covered 4 it, all right . 5 So, Ms . Clark, you get the final closing 6 argument then . 7 MS . CLARK: Okay. Thank you, Mr . Hearing 8 Examiner . 9 So let me begin by the code basis for the 10 City' s denial of the business license renewal and 11 then also the order to close the business . So the 12 code basis in the Renton Municipal Code is 5-5-3 13 subsection G7 . And there the code provides that the 14 administrator, and in this case the administrator is 15 designee, Ms . Weldon, may serve a notice ordering a 16 business to close and to discontinue operation if a 17 business operates without a valid business license 18 or violates any provision later in the section of 19 the code . 20 So moving later in the section, 5-5-3 21 subsection G5, 5 provides that a business license may 22 be revoked or refused to be denied or is otherwise 23 in violation when it violates federal, state or 24 municipal law or violates any health regulation . 25 So, here, the City in large part is referring to the N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn#28884-1 Page 138 1 findings of King County Public Health that this 2 business is in violation of state, local law and 3 health regulations . 4 So although during the course of the 5 hearing there was significant testimony about 6 whether there was (indiscernible) a disparate impact 7 on a different cultural group, the City ' s basis for 8 ordering the business to close and for denying the 9 renewal is 100 percent based on the state law on the 10 indoor smoking ban, and then King County Public 11 Health ' s interpretation of that law through both 12 King County Public Health Board or Health code, and 13 in addition the health regulations that King County 14 has enacted. 15 So the City' s basis for denying the 16 business license renewal and ordering the business 17 to close have nothing to do with cultural 18 considerations or a disparate impact among any 19 particular groups within the city of Renton or 20 elsewhere . It is 100 percent based on the indoor 21 smoking ban at the state, local and county levels . 22 So the indoor smoking ban originated, as 23 the Hearing Examiner likely knows, through an 24 initiative passed by the voters of Washington . It 25 was Initiative 901 that was passed in November of N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn#28884-1 Page 139 1 2005 . And so looking at the initiative that was 2 passed, it was the voice of the people, voters of 3 Washington who chose to, in fact, impose upon the 4 people a limitation of freedoms, so the limitation, 5 clearly, from choosing to smoke in indoor places if 6 they were either places of employment or public 7 places . 8 There is little case law of the validity 9 of the initiative which was codified at RCW Chapter 10 70 . 160 . However, there has been a constitutional 11 challenge to the initiative and the Supreme Court 12 did uphold the constitutional challenges . So that 13 case is American Legion Post v. Department of 14 Health, and the cite to that decision is 164 Wash . 2d 15 570 . It ' s a 2008 decision . 16 And in that case the Supreme Court looked 17 at challenges based on due process claims, people 18 protection claims and void for vagueness claims and 19 upheld the initiative on all respect . Furthermore, 20 the court in that case went on to find that smoking 21 is not a fundamental right and that ' s at 600 . So 22 the indoor smoking ban, so the codification of the 23 initiative provides at 70, sorry, RCW 70 . 160 . 050 24 that owners shall prohibit smoking in public places 25 and places of employment, so that the statute itself N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn#28884-1 Page 140 1 gives us the three issues that are present in this 2 appeal hearing. Those three issues are whether 3 smoking was an issue, whether Kazi ' s is a public 4 place, and finally whether Kazi ' s is a place of 5 employment . 6 As I mentioned, there are county and 7 health regulations that implement the indoor smoking 8 ban . At the county level it is Board of Health 9 Chapter 19 . 03, and the Hearing Examiner will find 10 that those provisions mirror the language of the 11 state law . They have definitions for smoking, place 12 of employment and public place that all mirror the 13 language of the state law. 14 So, turning to those three issues, first, 15 whether smoking was present in the Kazi ' s business, 16 so at RCW 70 . 160 . 020, which is the definition 17 section for the indoor smoking ban and there is an 18 identical definition in the King County Board of 19 Health regulations, smoke or smoking means the 20 carrying or smoking of any kind of lighted pipe, 21 cigar, cigarette or any other lighted smoke 22 equipment . 23 And so, here, the findings of the Public 24 Health Inspector, Mr . Pajimula, and Ms . Kazi ' s own 25 testimony, leave no doubt that there is lit charcoal N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn#28884-1 Page 141 1 that is at least an element of the business . So 2 that ' s the first element is met there is smoking 3 involved. 4 The next question is whether Kazi ' s is a 5 public place under the statute, and same RCW 6 definition provision 70 . 160 . 020 . And a public place 7 means, and I 'm reading in part, that portion of any 8 building used by and open to the public . That can 9 expressly include under the statutory definition 10 restaurants, bars and taverns . 11 So then before I discuss the guidelines, 12 that Public Health promulgated further defining what 13 it means to be a public place versus a private 14 place, there is a Washington State Supreme Court 15 case that looks at the question of whether a club 16 was a private club or open to the public . So the 17 context was a bit different there, it was in the 18 case of a discrimination issue . I believe it was an 19 Eagle ' s club that was at issue . And so there the 20 exclusion of women from membership could be upheld 21 if the place was considered to be a private 22 association . 23 So the Supreme Court in the Tenino Aerie 24 v. Grand Aerie case-- and the cite to that is 148 25 Wash. 2d 224 and that ' s a 2002 case -- the Washington N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn#28884-1 Page 142 1 Supreme Court in establishing criteria for how to 2 distinguish between a place as being private or 3 public leaned heavily upon a U. S . Supreme Court, the 4 Roberts decision in that case . 5 And so our Supreme Court came up with a 6 list of inquiries that a court should ask itself in 7 determining whether a place is public or private, so 8 that query involves the following : An organization ' s 9 size, purpose, policies, selectivity, public 10 services offered, practices and other 11 characteristics pertinent to a particular case . 12 However, it then continues : Emphasis should be 13 placed on whether the organization is a business of 14 a commercial enterprise as opposed to nonprofit, and 15 whether its membership policies are so unselective 16 and unrestricted that the organization can fairly be 17 said to offer its services to the public . 18 Here, the Public Health guidelines that 19 are Exhibit COR-11 are consistent with our 20 Washington Supreme Court ' s direction in the Tenino 21 Aerie case in that the public place criteria that 22 have been adopted by Public Health regulations 23 require that in order to b a non-public place and a 24 truly private organization, there must be 25 selectivity, restrictiveness and limited numbers . N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn#28884-1 Page 143 1 So, here, the City, although it sounds 2 like there was a child under the age of 3 at least 3 once in the operation, it does sound like the 4 testimony indicates that the restrictive criterion 5 is met in that numbers are restricted to those of 6 smoking age . In addition, there was testimony at 7 least as to an effort on the owner ' s part to meet 8 the limited criteria in that there is an effort to 9 cap the number of inembers to 2, 500 as provided in 10 the guidelines . However, there is no evidence to 11 prove the selective criteria that the guidelines 12 present, and that as read in the Supreme Court case, 13 our Supreme Court has determined to actually be 14 where the emphasis of the court should be and that 15 is whether there is policies that are so unselective 16 and unrestricted such as the place may be fairly 17 open to the public . 18 So, here, the testimony indicates that the 19 operation does appear to be open to the public in 20 terms of selectivity. There are no criteria of who 21 can join based on their purpose or based on the 22 outcome of the business or based on any particular 23 criteria, it is simply anyone who comes to the door . 24 It sounds like it can happen on a referral basis or 25 otherwise and then there is a waiting period, but N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn#28884-1 Page 144 1 that is all that is done . 2 There is no evaluation of the applicant ' s 3 compliance or lack of compliance with any stated 4 membership criteria . That ' s the selectivity 5 criterion is not met . And from the Public Health 6 inspections from February 2017 through April of 7 2018, the findings of the inspector made over that 8 course of more than a year also support that the 9 business was open to the public in that their 10 repeated findings of unrestricted access to the 11 entrance . There was a lack of documentation as to 12 who the members were, so there was an inability to 13 check when someone was at the door as to whether 14 they were a member or not, in violation of the 15 ability to limit the number of inembers . 16 So then the third issue is whether the 17 business is a place of employment . And there the 18 statute defines a place of employment at 70 . 160 . 020 19 as a place under the control of the owner in which 20 employees are required to pass through during the 21 course of employment, entrances and exits to the 22 places employment are included. 23 And so, here, there is some question as to 24 whether Mr . Senny (phonetic) and Mr . Crombie are 25 employees or not . It sounds like they' re business N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn#28884-1 Page 145 1 partners but in another location and so there ' s a 2 question as to whether their helping out at the 3 Renton location could be deemed employment; sounds 4 like there ' s a question as to whether friends 5 helping out can be deemed employees or not . 6 Yelp and Facebook information show that 7 there were at least on several occasions either DJs 8 or belly dancers and there ' s a question as to 9 whether they were volunteering or friends or just 10 helping out or employees . However, it is undisputed 11 that there is, I believe it was on each of the 12 inspections by King County Public Health there was a 13 security guard who was inside or had just come from 14 inside . And so it is undisputed at least as to the 15 security guard that Kazi ' s is a place of employment . 16 Finally, the American Legion case, which I cited for 17 as having upheld the constitutionality of Initiative 18 901, emphasized again that if a place offers indoor 19 smoking then it is a violation of the indoor smoking 20 ban if it is a place of employment or a public place 21 or both . And so, here, King County found that 22 Kazi ' s is a place where smoking occurs . It ' s also a 23 public place and finally that it is also a place of 24 employment . 25 And based upon the King County Public N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn#28884-1 Page 146 1 Health ' s (indiscernible) determination in an April 2 16th letter, which is Exhibit 3, the City concluded 3 that there was a violation of state and local law 4 and health regulation and that will properly issue 5 an order to close the business and we ask that that 6 order be affirmed. 7 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay. Unfortunately, 8 my laptop battery just went out, so I 'm kind of 9 quoting from memory G7 , the code provision you ' re 10 relying on for this . I think when it talks about 11 remedies it says that the examiner shall affirm the 12 closing of the business if it ' s established that the 13 business has failed to abate . In other words it ' s 14 still currently operating in violation . 15 So on the employee issue, I mean if the 16 evidence shows that the only employee at this point 17 is the security guard and it was an issue of the 18 fact that the security guard happened to be inside a 19 couple of times in the past, I mean can I really 20 make a finding that currently, I mean it sounds like 21 Ms . Kazi is now taking the effort to tell the 22 security guard to stay outside . So could I still, 23 given those circumstances, come up with, you know, 24 (indiscernible) was a finding that currently the way 25 the business is being operated, you know, employees N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn#28884-1 Page 147 1 are working inside and subject to that smoke? 2 MS . CLARK: Yes . 3 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay. Well, how? 4 Yeah. 5 MS . CLARK: And here ' s why. 6 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay. 7 MS . CLARK: So under principles 8 articulated I think perhaps most famously in that 9 Supreme Court ' s the Gwaltney case, which I cannot 10 give you the cite for but I think it ' s somewhere 11 around 505 U. S . that was an environmental case . But 12 the court held that if a violation is recurrent, 13 without any remedying steps having been shown to 14 prevent a recurrence of the issue, it is deemed an 15 ongoing violation . 16 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay. 17 MS . CLARK: And so here the testimony was 18 that the business owner, when the inspector was 19 present, in front of the inspector said, you know, 20 "Don ' t be inside . " However, each successive time 21 that the inspector appeared that same issue was 22 occurring . And so, here, there we have the Hearing 23 Examiner has no reasonable basis to expect that the 24 outcome has changed. 25 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, okay. And also N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn#28884-1 Page 148 1 you make reference to the guidelines by Department 2 counsel . Those have been adopted as regulations; is 3 that correct? If I look at 19 . 03 will they be all 4 spelled out there? 5 MS . CLARK: That is an excellent point . 6 The regulations are in 19 . 03 Public Health Code . 7 The guidelines, I believe, are -- I don ' t want to 8 mischaracterize what (indiscernible) , but I believe 9 that they are truly operating guidelines, practices 10 and procedures of Public Health . 11 HEARING EXAMINER: I mean because you had 12 quoted from the City Code that said if they' re in 13 violation of statutes or I believe it was 14 regulations that -- 15 MS . CLARK: Yes . 16 HEARING EXAMINER: But if the guidelines 17 aren ' t regulations are they applicable here then? 18 MS . CLARK: Yeah, yeah . And thank you for 19 that question . 20 HEARING EXAMINER: Yeah. 21 MS . CLARK: I should have clarified. What 22 I meant was that the health regulations are King 23 County Board of Health Chapter 19 . 03 which is the 24 county implementation of the indoor smoking ban . 25 And for Public Health ' s own purposes in determining N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn#28884-1 Page 149 1 compliance and in conducting inspections it has 2 developed the guidelines to flesh out what the 3 health regulations set forth in Board of Health 4 Chapter 19 . 03 provides . 5 HEARING EXAMINER: So you think that -- I 6 mean the City position is those qualify as 7 regulations under the City' s business license 8 regulations then? 9 MS . CLARK: The City ' s position is that 10 King County Board of Health Chapter 19 . 03 is a 11 health regulation . 12 HEARING EXAMINER: Yeah, but you said the 13 guidelines aren ' t part of 19 . 03 . They were adopted 14 to implement 19 . 03 or something. 15 MS . CLARK: Yeah. And so, yes, and I 'm 16 not trying to say otherwise . The City' s position is 17 that King County Public Health is charged with 18 (indiscernible) for enforcing and implementing the 19 indoor smoking ban . And so what it has done 20 regulations and laws-wise is it has adopted Chapter 21 19 . 03 of the Board of Health regulations that as I 22 indicated before mirror the state law. 23 HEARING EXAMINER: Right . 24 MS . CLARK: And so within its authority to 25 then implement the indoor smoking ban and measure a N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn#28884-1 Page 150 1 compliance within King County, there is a certain 2 level of deference that ought to be given to the 3 County as to how it interprets its own code in its 4 capacity for enforcing a law within the county. 5 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay. So they can be 6 viewed as kind of interpretations of 19 . 03 in one 7 sense . Because there was one part I was having a 8 little trouble with was, you know, county officials 9 saying that they found that it was open to the 10 public because Ms . Kazi wasn ' t able to show the 11 membership roles, you know. 12 And if the regulation is, you know, thou 13 shalt have membership standards, the failure to show 14 membership rolls doesn ' t establish that there isn ' t 15 a membership program in place . It ' s an evidentiary 16 problem at the time that she wasn ' t able to make her 17 case, but if she could prove that now, you know, it 18 seems to supersede the fact she wasn ' t able to 19 produce the documentation required at the time, so . 20 MS . CLARK: Yes . And it is for that 21 precise reason -- 22 HEARING EXAMINER: Yeah. 23 MS . CLARK: -- that I said I read the 24 provisions of the statute -- 25 HEARING EXAMINER: Right . N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn#28884-1 Page 151 1 MS . CLARK: -- to indicate that it is bare 2 bones . That it does provide a definition of what a 3 public place is, but it is not descriptive in how to 4 make that determination -- 5 HEARING EXAMINER: Yeah, yeah . 6 MS . CLARK: -- or not, which is why the 7 Washington Supreme Court in -- although not directly 8 on point, it does provide useful guidance as to how 9 our Supreme Court might evaluate the public place 10 question within the context of Initiative 901 . 11 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay. 12 MS . CLARK: And that again as I mentioned 13 that King County Public Health is due some deference 14 in its capacity as the agency tasked with enforcing 15 -- 16 HEARING EXAMINER: Yeah, yeah . 17 MS . CLARK: -- the state law. 18 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, makes sense, 19 great . 20 Well, yeah, I 'm not -- well, first of all, 21 of course there ' s still some evidence that ' s going 22 to be considered after the close of the hearing 23 today, the video, so I couldn ' t if I wanted to say 24 which way I 'm going to rule . But I can ' t say, at 25 this point I don ' t know because I really have to dig N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn#28884-1 Page 152 1 into the King County regulations and the evidence . 2 What I typically do after hearings 3 especially this length, as one of the people working 4 for me then gives me a summary of the three-hour 5 hearing and I go over everything in detail and I can 6 look up parts where it ' s unclear, you know, or I 7 can ' t remember what was said. So I 'm going to 8 examine the evidence that was produced today very 9 carefully and see how the law applies . 10 As I mentioned, Ms . Kazi, you know, I 11 don ' t have the authority to invalidate any 12 regulations or l don ' t have the discretion to say, 13 "Well, this is an unfair, ridiculous law, I 'm not 14 going to apply it . " I have to apply whatever ' s on 15 the books . And so that ' s how, you know, my 16 decision ' s going to be guided. 17 And I really want to say too that you are 18 a very impressive, articulate, very smart person and 19 you certainly sound to me like a responsible 20 business owner, you know, but responsibility isn ' t a 21 key factor in this . The issue is whether you ' re 22 violating Washington smoking laws and King County 23 regulations that implement that . 24 So that is what I have to look at and, you 25 know, personally I ' d, you know, if a bunch of people N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn#28884-1 Page 153 1 want to smoke in private and even if they pay for it 2 and everyone ' s consenting, I don ' t know what the 3 problem is . But, you know, if that ' s the law, 4 that ' s the law and I ' ve got to follow it . So I ' ve 5 got some work ahead of ine and I ' ll be looking at 6 that very closely. 7 Now in terms of the videos, let ' s see, can 8 you get that to Ms . Clark by next Monday at 5 9 o ' clock, we ' ll say, and then, Ms . Clark, let me know 10 if you ' ve got any objections what, the next day? Is 11 24 hours enough or are you real busy then or is that 12 -- okay. 13 MS . CLARK: (Indiscernible) . 14 HEARING EXAMINER: Yeah, just let me know 15 by the next day. And you can just include me and 16 Ms . Moya, yourself and Ms . Kazi, we ' ll all be in the 17 same email string where we do that . So when you 18 send the video clip to Ms . Clark, cc : me and Ms . 19 Moya . I won ' t look at the video until after any 20 objections have been made and ruled upon . 21 But then Ms . Clark will let me know by the 22 next day if she has any problems . If there is, then 23 I ' ll entertain arguments, you know, on whether or 24 not the video should be admitted, and then if I say 25 it is admitted then I ' ll look at it . That ' s how N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn#28884-1 Page 154 1 that ' ll work. 2 So any questions or anything? I think 3 we 've hashed this out pretty well . Everyone really, 4 you know, did a good job of representing their 5 particular positions . It ' s very educational for me 6 and I almost want to go to a hookah lounge just to 7 see what it looks like . But anyway, appreciate your 8 testimony today and we ' re done for this afternoon . 9 Thank you . 10 MS . KAZI : Thank you . 11 (WHEREUPON, the hearing concluded at 5 : 01 12 p.m. ) 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 N A E G E L I y`���R�''1c' (800) 528-3335 c3�� DEPOSITION AND TRIAL ��'A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM 1 CERTIFICATE 2 3 I, Patty English, do hereby certify that the 4 proceeding named herein was professionally transcribed on 5 the date set forth in the certificate herein; that I 6 transcribed all testimony adduced and other oral � proceedings had in the foregoing matter; and that the g foregoing transcript pages constitute a full, true, and g correct record of such testimony adduced and oral 10 proceeding had and of the whole thereof. 11 12 IN WITNESS HEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this 13 22nd day January, 2019 . 14 15 16 � — ` �� 17 18 19 Patty English, AAERT 843 20 21 22 23 24 25 Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn#28884-1 Page 156 $ 12 7 : 12 2 134 : 12 75 : 3 $40 127 : 22 7 : 20 7 : 24 2 ,500 25 : 4 �5 : 15 75 : 21 $5 129 : 20 8 � 7 22 : 24 25 : 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23 10 : 22 10 : 25 44 : 1 44 : 2 allowing a ear 8 : 22 44 : 7 44 : 8 74 : 24 anything 18 : 5 PP 28 : 18 36 : 18 12 : 25 45 : 14 44 : 9 46 : 2 93 : 6 119 : 2 63 : 16 N A E G E L I y`'��ftR�''1 ' (800) 528-3335 ���c DEPOSITION AND TRIAL � �"A��,,,e„r� NAEGELIUSA.COM Kazi's Hookah Lounge Hearing September 25, 2018 NDT Assgn#28884-1 Page 160 77 : 4 134 : 18 area 35 : 4 109 : 25 82 : 25 84 : 12 approach 69 : 11 69 : 11 135 : 13 84 : 21 85 : 12 �8 : 12 71 : 21 78 : 16 attached 85 : 15 85 : 18 79 : 14 91 : 13 approached 21 : 15 38 : 22 89 : 14 89 : 21 108 : 15 90 : 6 91 : 13 113 : 5 attaches 90 : 25 approval 56 : 18 59 : 15 areas 112 : 11 91 : 4 96 : 6 43 : 20 attaching 96 : 10 100 : 7 77 : 4 82 : 25 aren' t 63 : 7 130 : 25 104 : 7 129 : 9 80 : 12 135 : 6 131 : 1 approvals 148 : 17 applications 85 : 12 96 : 6 attachment 149 : 13 14 : 12 14 : 14 approve 42 : 21 38 : 4 38 : 5 42 : 17 42 : 18 argument 19 : 6 38 : 8 73 : 25 51 : 19 57 : 21 136 : 21 46 : 5 77 : 6 attachments 83 : 24 85 : 8 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