HomeMy WebLinkAboutKazi s Hookah Lounge Hearing 09-25-2018 (3)0001
1 BEFORE THE HEARING EXAMINER OF
THE CITY OF RENTON
2
3
4
FILE NUMBER: BL041328
5
IN RE: KAZI'S HOOKAH LOUNGE
6
BUSINESS OWNER: SHADIKA KAZI
7 _____________________________________________________
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15
16
17 HEARING
18
HELD ON
19 TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 25, 2018
1:34 P.M.
20
21 BEFORE
PHIL OLBRECHTS
22 HEARING EXAMINER
23
CITY OF RENTON - CITY HALL
24 1055 SOUTH GRADY WAY
RENTON, WASHINGTON 98057
25
0002
1 APPEARANCES
2
3 APPEARING ON BEHALF OF THE CITY OF RENTON:
4 LESLIE CLARK, ESQUIRE
5 Renton City Attorney's Office
6 1055 S. Grady Way
7 Renton, WA 98057
8 (425) 430-6480
9 (425) 430-6498 (Fax)
10
11 APPEARING ON BEHALF OF THE BUSINESS OWNER:
12 SHADIKA KAZI
13 PRO SE
14 111 Airport Way
15 Renton, WA 98057
16 (206) 518-8320
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0003
1 INDEX
2 Page
3 SHADIK KAZI
4 Direct (By Ms. Clark) 21
5 Direct (By Ms. Clark) 122
6 Direct (By Hearing Examiner) 123
7 Direct (By Ms. Clark) 130
8
9 LINDA WELTON
10 Direct (By Ms. Clark) 43
11
12 DONNA LOCHER
13 Direct (By Ms. Clark) 52
14 Direct (By Ms. Kazi) 53
15
16 SCOTT NEAL
17 Direct (By Ms. Clark) 54
18 Direct (By Ms. Kazi) 66
19
20 FELS PAJIMULA
21 Direct (By Ms. Clark) 74
22 Direct (By Hearing Examiner) 88
23 Direct (By Ms. Kazi) 89
24
25
0004
1 EXHIBITS
2 CITY'S EXHIBITS:
3 No. Description Offered Admitted
4
5 Exhibits 1-12 7 7
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
0005
1 EXHIBITS CONTINUED
2 APPELLANT'S EXHIBITS:
3 No. Description Offered Admitted
4
5 A-1 Letter 11 18
6 A-2 Letter 11 18
7 A-3 Letter 11 18
8 A-4 Letter 12 18
9 A-5 Letter 12 18
10 A-6 Email 12 18
11 A-7 Photo 12 18
12 A-8 Document 12 18
13 A-9 Document 13 18
14 A-10 Document 13 18
15 A-11 Document 13 18
16 A-12 Document 13 18
17 A-13 Yelp Reviews 14 18
18 A-14 Document 14 18
19 A-15 Document 14 18
20 A-16 Document 14 18
21 A-17 Advertisement 14 18
22 A-18 Membership Application 15 18
23 A-18 (SIC) Videos 132 N/A
24
25
0006
1 HEARING
2 HELD ON
3 TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 25, 2018
4 1:34 P.M.
5 BEFORE
6 PHIL OLBRECHTS
7 HEARING EXAMINER
8
9 HEARING EXAMINER: All right, let's get
10 started. It's about 1:30 p.m., Renton City Council
11 Meeting Chambers, September 25th, 2018. I'm Phil
12 Olbrechts, hearing examiner. We have an appeal of a
13 denial of a business license renewal application,
14 BL041328. The format for today's hearing appeal
15 will be the City will present its case as to why it
16 decided to deny the renewal application. They'll be
17 allowed to present witnesses. Any witness testimony
18 shall be subject to cross examination.
19 Ms. Kazi, you can ask questions of all the
20 witnesses the City presents. Once the City's done
21 presenting its case, then Ms. Kazi you can present
22 yours and also present witnesses, and your witnesses
23 too will be subject to cross examination.
24 And then the City has the final right of
25 rebuttal. They get to respond to any evidence you
0007
1 presented, and I have a couple weeks to issue a
2 decision. So, any questions about the format or how
3 to do this?
4 Okay, any preliminary matters the parties
5 wanted to bring up before we get started?
6 Okay, Ms. Clark?
7 MS. CLARK: (Indiscernible), Mr. Hearing
8 Examiner, Leslie Clark with the City Attorney's
9 Office for the City of Renton. Both parties
10 admitted exhibits or submitted exhibits and so I'd
11 like to move to admit the City's Exhibits 1 through
12 12.
13 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay.
14 MS. CLARK: And I wanted to state that the
15 City has no objection to appellant's exhibits,
16 however, I wanted to talk about how to identify them
17 for record purposes since the City did not receive
18 them numbered.
19 HEARING EXAMINER: Oh, okay, all right.
20 So the City has identified 12 exhibits in an exhibit
21 list that was submitted, oh, and that includes your
22 supplementary list, right? Okay, yeah.
23 So, Ms. Kazi, do you have any objections
24 to the entry of the City's 12 exhibits?
25 MS. KAZI: I'm not sure exactly which
0008
1 exhibit was not numbered.
2 HEARING EXAMINER: No, we're talking about
3 the City's right now. We'll get to yours in a --
4 MS. KAZI: Oh, no. I don't have any
5 objections.
6 HEARING EXAMINER: All right, so I'll
7 admit the City's Exhibits 1 through 12.
8 (WHEREUPON, documents marked for
9 identification as City's Exhibits 1-12 were received
10 into evidence.)
11 HEARING EXAMINER: And now Ms. Kazi had
12 some exhibits as well. I don't know if I have a
13 copy up here of those. Is that something recently,
14 Ms. Kazi? Did you bring those exhibits recently?
15 MS. KAZI: I send the exhibit in July.
16 HEARING EXAMINER: Oh, okay. You did send
17 them in July. All right, okay. I'm just trying to
18 find them here.
19 MS. KAZI: I do have some of the stuff.
20 HEARING EXAMINER: All right, hold on a
21 second.
22 Yeah, there doesn't appear to be any
23 exhibits in the clerk's file. Did you just send
24 your exhibits to Ms. Clark, Ms. Kazi?
25 MS. KAZI: Yes.
0009
1 HEARING EXAMINER: Oh, okay, all right.
2 Do you have an extra copy of those with you today
3 that I could have?
4 MS. KAZI: I do have it someplace.
5 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, yeah. If you
6 could give me a set, that would be really helpful.
7 If that's your only copy you can keep them
8 for now, but okay, all right.
9 MS. KAZI: I can only give you certain
10 (indiscernible) copy. The rest of it I probably
11 need it and I can give it to you when I
12 (indiscernible).
13 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay. Well, yeah.
14 Actually, why don't -- can you make copies of --
15 yeah, we'll make copies right now of all your
16 exhibits and then we'll take a little break to do
17 that. I think it'll be a lot easier to get through
18 that way.
19 MS. CLARK: And the City would request a
20 copy as well since there are many pages submitted
21 and it looks like we're reduced down to just a few.
22 I'd like a copy of (indiscernible).
23 HEARING EXAMINER: Oh, okay. All right,
24 sure. Okay, so we'll -- how much time do you need,
25 Sandy, do you think?
0010
1 THE CLERK: Five.
2 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, all right. So
3 we'll take a little five to ten-minute recess to get
4 those copies done.
5 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken.)
6 HEARING EXAMINER: A-1 will be first page,
7 the letter to Dear Members of Renton City Council.
8 (WHEREUPON, Kazi letter requesting
9 business license application was marked Exhibit A-1
10 for identification.)
11 HEARING EXAMINER: A-2 will be a letter to
12 Ms. Iwen Wang from Ms. Kazi.
13 (WHEREUPON, a letter to Ms. Iwen Wang was
14 marked Exhibit A-2 for identification.)
15 HEARING EXAMINER: A-3 is a letter to
16 Donna Locher from Ms. Kazi.
17 (WHEREUPON, a letter to Donna Locher was
18 marked Exhibit A-3 for identification.)
19 HEARING EXAMINER: A-4 is a letter date
20 stamped May 10th, 2018, Dear City of Renton
21 Administrative Services Administrator, subject,
22 Appealing for obtaining a renewal license for Hookah
23 Lounge.
24 (WHEREUPON, a letter to Renton
25 Administrative Services Administrator re "Appealing
0011
1 for obtaining a renewal license for Hookah Lounge"
2 was marked Exhibit A-4 for identification.)
3 HEARING EXAMINER: A-5 is a letter date
4 stamped May 23rd, 2018 to Dear City of Renton
5 Administrative Services Administrator and City
6 Hearing Examiner.
7 (WHEREUPON, a letter to City of Renton
8 Administrative Services and City Hearing Examiner
9 was marked Exhibit A-5 for identification.)
10 HEARING EXAMINER: A-6, I can't exactly
11 tell what it is. It just says, has Google up on the
12 top left hand corner and that is composed of four
13 pages like that.
14 (WHEREUPON, email to KC Public Health was
15 marked Exhibit A-6 for identification.)
16 HEARING EXAMINER: A-7 is a photograph of
17 Venus & Mars Lounge.
18 (WHEREUPON, a photo of Venus & Mars Lounge
19 was marked Exhibit A-7 for identification.)
20 HEARING EXAMINER: A-8 is a Renton License
21 Renewal Notice, December 28th, 2017.
22 (WHEREUPON, a document titled "Renton
23 License Renewal Notice" was marked Exhibit A-8 for
24 identification.)
25 HEARING EXAMINER: A-9, something from a
0012
1 website called Fivestars showing total visits, total
2 members of Kazi's Hookah Lounge and that's composed
3 of five pages. I'm sorry, that should be, yeah, A-
4 9. Okay.
5 (WHEREUPON, a document, Fivestars Member
6 Data, was marked Exhibit A-9 for identification.)
7 HEARING EXAMINER: Then A-10 is another
8 Fivestars web page with a bunch of names blacked
9 out. It looks like a membership list. It also is
10 five pages.
11 (WHEREUPON, a document, Fivestars Member
12 List, was marked Exhibit A-10 for identification.)
13 HEARING EXAMINER: A-11 is it looks like a
14 business license application form filled out by Ms.
15 Kazi dated April 20th, 2015 and that's two pages.
16 (WHEREUPON, a document, "Kazi Hookah
17 Lounge" business license application, was marked
18 Exhibit A-11 for identification.)
19 HEARING EXAMINER: A-12 is a business
20 license to Kazi's Hookah Lounge dated April 30th,
21 2017, BL038974.
22 (WHEREUPON, a document, Kazi's Hookah
23 Lounge business license, BL038904, was marked
24 Exhibit A-12 for identification.)
25 HEARING EXAMINER: A-13 appear to be Yelp
0013
1 reviews or some kind of reviews. That's two pages.
2 (WHERUPON, Yelp reviews were marked
3 Exhibit A-13 for identification.)
4 HEARING EXAMINER: A-14 is a membership
5 form.
6 (WHEREUPON, a document titled "Membership
7 Agreement" was marked Exhibit A-14 for
8 identification.)
9 HEARING EXAMINER: A-15 is a document
10 entitled "Business Licensing and Taxes."
11 (WHERUPON, a document titled "Business
12 Licensing and Taxes" was marked Exhibit A-15 for
13 identification.)
14 HEARING EXAMINER: A-16 is a document with
15 a header "KGP Investment Group LLC."
16 (WHEREUPON, a document titled "KGP
17 Investment Group LLC" was marked Exhibit A-16 for
18 identification.)
19 HEARING EXAMINER: And finally, A-17 is
20 some kind of an image. It says, "Saturday May 19th,
21 Seattle Hookah Lounge."
22 (WHEREUPON, an advertisement for Seattle
23 Hookah Lounge was marked Exhibit A-17 for
24 identification.)
25 HEARING EXAMINER: All right, Ms. Kazi,
0014
1 are these all your documents?
2 MS. KAZI: I have some more that I
3 actually emailed to Ms. Leslie (indiscernible)
4 membership application forms that people actually
5 signed and put their name and phone number
6 (indiscernible).
7 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay. You've done --
8 do you know how many pages that was?
9 MS. KAZI: I believe there was normally
10 40, 50 or more, so.
11 HEARING EXAMINER: Oh, okay. Well, I'll
12 make A-18 the membership applications emailed to Ms.
13 Clark.
14 (WHEREUPON, membership applications marked
15 Exhibit A-18 for identification.)
16 HEARING EXAMINER: Do you remember what
17 the date was of the email, Ms. Kazi?
18 MS. KAZI: Yes, I do. And I believe it
19 was July 20, July 18 or 17, and I also submitted a
20 form where I databased from my register where all
21 the membership were to be, was collected, dated with
22 number (indiscernible) since 2015 to 2017 current
23 and that was probably (indiscernible) 8,000,
24 probably 6,000 for in between those two years.
25 HEARING EXAMINER: So A-18 is your
0015
1 membership forms that you emailed to Ms. Clark, 40
2 to 50 pages. And I didn't quite get what the last
3 thing was. What was the date on it?
4 MS. KAZI: So there's --
5 HEARING EXAMINER: Pardon?
6 MS. KAZI: -- two things that's not here.
7 First thing is the application form that you
8 basically apply for.
9 HEARING EXAMINER: Those are the 40, 50
10 pages you're talking about?
11 MS. KAZI: Yes. Yes, more of them.
12 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, all right.
13 That's A-18.
14 MS. KAZI: And the other one is the
15 database, it's the electronic database that I used
16 to do instead of having the application form.
17 HEARING EXAMINER: Ah.
18 MS. KAZI: We used to use it on our
19 register system and that was created since the first
20 day start the (indiscernible) business.
21 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay.
22 MS. KAZI: And that was from the beginning
23 of 2015 and it was probably 8,000 or more people in
24 that (indiscernible).
25 HEARING EXAMINER: Ah, you sent that
0016
1 entire database to Ms. Clark?
2 MS. KAZI: Yes.
3 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, all right.
4 Ms. Clark, do you have those documents?
5 MS. CLARK: I certainly don't have them
6 printed.
7 HEARING EXAMINER: Oh, yeah.
8 MS. CLARK: But did receive them, yes.
9 (indiscernible).
10 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, you got them.
11 MS. CLARK: Don't have a problem with them
12 being admitted. I do have a problem if we're
13 talking about details about what's in them if none
14 of us is looking at them.
15 HEARING EXAMINER: Hm.
16 MS. CLARK: But we're fine to take the
17 representation from appellant that there are
18 approximately 6,000 members or something like that.
19 That's not an issue.
20 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay.
21 MS. CLARK: I'd be looking at, you know if
22 there's a representation about what line 23 says or
23 doesn't say that is a concern because none of us
24 would be looking at it.
25 HEARING EXAMINER: All right, hm.
0017
1 MS. KAZI: I'm not sure. So what we have
2 in the database, the person first and last name,
3 phone number, when they become a member --
4 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay.
5 MS. KAZI: And so date of their membership
6 was created. And what else -- so first and last
7 name --
8 HEARING EXAMINER: Yeah.
9 MS. KAZI: -- a phone number for the
10 customer and the date customer created membership.
11 So sometimes you can even find on the database when
12 they paid for the membership.
13 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, okay.
14 MS. KAZI: Because it is a computer
15 (indiscernible). It's called Clover System, so what
16 it does is it generates payments and submission of
17 memberships as well and how the money was collected.
18 HEARING EXAMINER: All right, okay.
19 Well, I'll -- yeah, I'll admit those two
20 documents, and obviously if a reference is made to
21 some detail in there and we need some time to go
22 back and look at it then the opportunity will be
23 given to the parties to dig it up and pull it out if
24 necessary.
25 All right, so I'll admit them, the
0018
1 documents A-1 through A-19.
2 (WHEREUPON, the documents marked Exhibits
3 A-1 through A-19 for identification were received
4 into evidence.)
5 HEARING EXAMINER: Anything else before we
6 jump into the hearing itself?
7 MS. CLARK: I have one (indiscernible)
8 exhibits and one final preliminary request.
9 HEARING EXAMINER: All right.
10 MS. CLARK: So the (indiscernible) in the
11 exhibits is that I wasn't able to identify all the
12 duplicates since we're, you know, just looking
13 through things quickly, but I note that there are
14 some duplicates. So, and I did notice two
15 specifically, that A-4 appears to me to be identical
16 to City of Renton-5.
17 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay.
18 MS. CLARK: And A-5 appears to be
19 identical to City of Renton-7. There are a couple
20 others that are duplicates, but I just wanted to
21 point that out because it may be that the City
22 refers to a City exhibit and Ms. Kazi refers to an
23 Appellant exhibit and we might in fact be talking
24 about the same document.
25 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, all right. Yeah,
0019
1 that's fine.
2 MS. CLARK: And the final preliminary
3 matter that I wanted to address is that the City
4 would respectfully request a few minutes following
5 the giving of all testimony and evidence for closing
6 argument.
7 HEARING EXAMINER: Oh, okay. Sure. So
8 okay, so the City will go first then Appellant
9 second. City gets rebuttal and then we'll have
10 closing arguments where Ms. Kazi will go first, City
11 will go last.
12 All right, and then of course all
13 testimony has to be taken under oath. I'll
14 administer the oath as per witness basis when they
15 come up to testify.
16 All right, I'll let the City get started
17 then.
18 MS. CLARK: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Hearing
19 Examiner. As our first witness, we would like to
20 call Ms. Shadika Kazi.
21 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay.
22 MS. KAZI: Do I stand up?
23 HEARING EXAMINER: Yeah. Raise your right
24 hand. Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth and
25 nothing but the truth in this proceeding?
0020
1 THE WITNESS: Yes.
2 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, great.
3 SHADIKA KAZI, having been first duly sworn, was
4 examined, and testified as follows:
5 EXAMINATION
6 BY MS. CLARK:
7 Q. Thank you, Ms. Kazi. And the City just
8 has a few questions for you to put some information
9 on the record. So, first of all, would you identify
10 the name of your business and its, your location
11 being the subject of this hearing today?
12 A. Sure. The name of the business, Kazi's
13 Hookah Lounge and the location is 111 Airport Way,
14 Renton, Washington, 98057. And it is Kazi's Hookah
15 Lounge, used to be, and it became Kazi's Hookah
16 Lounge LLC in 2017. So during 2015 to 2017 in
17 February we used to call Kazi's Hookah Lounge. In
18 March 2017 it became Kazi's Hookah Lounge LLC.
19 Q. What is the name of your partner?
20 A. Victor Cousarez.
21 Q. And he became a partner in approximately
22 when?
23 A. April.
24 Q. Of 2017?
25 A. I believe so, yes. I'm not sure exact
0021
1 date, but that's what I'm thinking. But I did put
2 him in the system (indiscernible).
3 Q. Okay. So I wanted to confirm for you that
4 you're the author of several exhibits that are at
5 issue in the hearing. Do you have in front of you a
6 set of the City's exhibits?
7 A. I do not have it, okay. (Indiscernible).
8 MS. CLARK: Let me just pause a moment
9 while I provide you with a copy.
10 THE WITNESS: I printed out but just what
11 I (indiscernible).
12 Q. Okay. Ms. Kazi, I'm handing you a copy of
13 the City's exhibits marked COR-1 through COR-12.
14 Would you please turn to Exhibit 1, COR-1, and look
15 for a business license application that is attached
16 to that document.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And I think this may actually be one of
19 our duplicates. Do you recognize this business
20 license application as a document that you had
21 filled out?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And then if you turn when, or
24 approximately two pages there's a letter dated, or
25 excuse me, it does not have a date, entitled "Dear
0022
1 Members of Renton City Hall?"
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Are you the author of that letter?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Great. Okay, if you would now turn to
6 Exhibit 5. That'll be the number of the exhibit
7 later in your packet.
8 A. Exhibit 5, (indiscernible)?
9 Q. Yes, COR-5, and that was under the City of
10 Renton (indiscernible).
11 HEARING EXAMINER: I don't think I have a
12 copy of the primary exhibit packet. I have the
13 supplemental one but not the primary packet. It's
14 not in the clerk file. Do you have --
15 THE WITNESS: (Indiscernible).
16 HEARING EXAMINER: Yeah, do you have an
17 extra packet?
18 MS. CLARK: I do.
19 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, that -- yeah, it
20 would be helpful to follow. Like I said, I don't
21 need the supplemental ones. That is included in the
22 clerk file, but not the originals.
23 MS. CLARK: So, Mr. Hearing Examiner, you
24 already have 9 through 12?
25 HEARING EXAMINER: Yes. Yeah, I do have
0023
1 that. (Indiscernible) was that email by the City
2 Attorney's Office? I might have it in my emails.
3 MS. CLARK: It was, but I have an
4 additional copy.
5 HEARING EXAMINER: Oh, yeah. That would
6 be easier, yeah.
7 Great, thanks.
8 MS. CLARK: I apologize. I think I
9 printed two pages.
10 HEARING EXAMINER: Oh, that's fine.
11 BY MS. CLARK:
12 Q. Okay, Ms. Kazi, we were at Exhibit 5. Are
13 you the author of that document?
14 A. Definitely, yes.
15 Q. Okay. And then one more similar question,
16 if you look at Exhibit Number 8, and are you the
17 author of that document?
18 A. It looks different but that's definitely
19 (indiscernible) just the way (indiscernible).
20 Q. Yeah. Okay, so thank you for that. So if
21 I refer to the business as simply Kazi's is that
22 sufficient?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. So is Kazi's still operating?
25 A. Yes.
0024
1 Q. Is it a for-profit business?
2 A. What do you mean for-profit?
3 Q. Are you a not-for-profit organization?
4 A. Not for profit?
5 Q. Is the goal of the business to earn money
6 for a profit?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. How many members do you have in
9 approximation?
10 A. So two members in total for Kazi's Lounge
11 (indiscernible).
12 Q. And those are the business members?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. How about members who attend, who frequent
15 the business?
16 A. Well, you mean just (indiscernible)
17 customer members?
18 Q. Yes.
19 A. How many we currently have? So I think, I
20 believe it's set around Fivestars showing the
21 current total number of the members (indiscernible)
22 since 2017 July. So it shows 18, is it 18 members,
23 total members, 1,864, since I think it was
24 (indiscernible) account, we start using the other
25 system and replaced and we changed the system to one
0025
1 a little bit more effective so we can count the
2 members so we don't go over more than what is
3 supposed to be the limit. By the Health Department,
4 they wanted us to be under 2,500 members per
5 quarter. In three months we can have no more than
6 2,500 and I show to you the record from every July.
7 So it really doesn't (indiscernible) three
8 months and it shows 1,865.
9 Q. So when you say there's a limit of 2,500,
10 how does that work? What's your understanding of
11 that?
12 A. The limit actually that this is something
13 the Health Department can explain a little bit more.
14 They want to create this way where, in my
15 understanding, they wanted to have like a very
16 private lounge where there's a limited number of
17 people, doesn't go too crazy or not just everybody's
18 cannot get access to it.
19 This is not like a (indiscernible), you
20 know, where you actually have, do have a referral to
21 go there, but this is how the standard Health
22 Department wanted us to do for the hookah lounge
23 because there was many violence, many problems
24 within the city with many hookah lounges where
25 there's a lot of (indiscernible) calls, people
0026
1 shooting or, you know, dying or things like that
2 happen in Seattle a lot.
3 And because of that he wanted to create
4 something very small gathering place where it's a
5 limited number and people go there and to have a
6 record of people who goes there and pretty much
7 being under. This is something they came up very
8 all of a sudden because of during the mayor, Seattle
9 mayor, there was a discussion of whether or not they
10 wanted to allow hookah lounges in Seattle.
11 And the mayor of Seattle listed out all
12 the hookah lounges that was in violation, all of the
13 11 hookah lounges that make most of the calls to for
14 calling for 9-1-1 and they listed out all those 11
15 hookah lounges. They wanted to go against them and
16 they wanted to shut them down.
17 Because during 2015, one of the leader or,
18 you know, somebody who was very respected in the
19 community died in 2015, and I believe he was Chinese
20 and the Chinese community they were very affected by
21 that. And they complained and they were to go fight
22 for him and wanted to show that this hookah lounges
23 are coming to that. There's too much crime,
24 violence, people are (indiscernible) from the
25 community.
0027
1 And that's when the City or mayor decided
2 okay, we will take a chance because these other
3 things happening and has been happening, there's too
4 many violence everywhere, we can (indiscernible)
5 hookah lounges.
6 And so they went ahead and did it and then
7 it took awhile to come up with the position and then
8 the City, the mayor overruled it. So we already
9 know what they came up with and (indiscernible) can
10 discuss about it later. And there was a settlement
11 between the Health Department and with the all the
12 11 hookah lounges and they came up with this package
13 for those hookah lounges to remain in business they
14 have to sign this agreement.
15 The agreement is that you have to be under
16 2,500. It's going to be very -- application form,
17 you know, records and everything to remain in
18 business. So although the, you know,
19 (indiscernible) that they have to follow this rule,
20 but they had to (indiscernible) something in order
21 to follow it because of all these things happening.
22 And, you know, the City had given them chances and
23 the Health Department giving them chances, so they
24 had to do something about it so it doesn't happen.
25 Q. And so the discussion that you were giving
0028
1 there was primarily, I want to clarify, about hookah
2 lounges in Seattle; is that right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. So are you or is Kazi's subject to a
5 settlement agreement?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Okay. So for the 2,500 members, explain
8 what steps you're taking to comply with your
9 understanding of that new rule.
10 A. Yes. So the new rule came and obviously I
11 had my (indiscernible). Mr. (indiscernible), he
12 helped me to understand the new package. And he
13 asked me if I have any question, do I understand the
14 package. We went over it. Then he came back. I
15 did a membership application for him. He looked it
16 over and he did not like it.
17 So he told me, you know, this doesn't
18 explain anything about the rules of the lounge, you
19 know, the inquirements (sic) and everything. It
20 needs to be kind of like an application form. So I
21 said, "Okay, no problem, just give me some time to
22 create one."
23 So I came up with -- slowly I came up with
24 another form which is this right here and you have
25 it. So it's finished and he read over it, he liked
0029
1 it and he took a picture of one with me to show to
2 his boss or I'm not sure who, but (indiscernible)
3 everybody who ever had a question.
4 And it shows (indiscernible) takes 24
5 hours processing which is a long time for somebody
6 who's a smoker and wants to smoke. And then, you
7 know, we have our general rules. We want to make
8 sure the outside of our property is clean, nobody's
9 trashing. We want to make sure that, you know, our
10 neighbors are not affected by all this trash and
11 keeping it safe and no gathering.
12 So we listed out everything. We even
13 listed out things that you have to have quiet
14 environments (indiscernible) outside, no alcohol,
15 marijuana, these kinds of things are allowed
16 outside, inside of this lounge. Nobody can actually
17 eat outside of the property anytime unless you want
18 to take a cigarette break or five minutes, less.
19 That's the only exceptions. So either you stay in
20 or you leave.
21 And then it also explains about, you know,
22 smoking can cause cancer or serious health problems,
23 whichever. You know, that's something that we even
24 had it on our menu. So when you order a flavor it
25 says on down there, you know, this is what it is
0030
1 smoking can cause. People read it, they just laugh
2 about it and okay, you know.
3 But this is something we wanted to let
4 people -- that this is one way or another you should
5 notice. So these are the things we have it on the
6 spot.
7 Q. And you indicated that you're the author
8 of this form?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. When did you create it?
11 A. I don't remember exact date or month, but
12 I'm sure I created it a long time ago.
13 Q. The date might be somewhat important, can
14 you approximate? It doesn't have to be exact.
15 A. Yeah, I think in probably 2016. That's
16 what I think, somewhere in November 2016.
17 Q. And do you recall when you showed it to --
18 and you're referring to (indiscernible) of Public
19 Health?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And do you recall approximately when you
22 went over it with him?
23 A. When? What, I remember what time he comes
24 to the lounge, but I just don't remember. It was
25 (indiscernible) I saw him, but I don't recall.
0031
1 Actually, I might. Give me one second.
2 Okay, in February 23, 2017 or it could be
3 a different date, I'm not sure, but I remember
4 telling, he telling me, need to (indiscernible) this
5 form, so I created something for him later on. I
6 don't have the exact date right now. I don't have
7 exact date. But I'm, you know, but I remember, you
8 know, he (indiscernible) and the application form
9 (indiscernible).
10 Q. Okay. But it sounds like we're not able
11 to approximate a date.
12 A. No.
13 Q. Okay. So turning back to Exhibit 5 --
14 A. Okay.
15 Q. -- COR-5. Do you see how on this first
16 page in the third paragraph there is a reference --
17 and I apologize, I will likely mispronounce the
18 name. But the two persons, one person's name is
19 Sakram (phonetic) (inaudible) and the second
20 person's name is Crombie (phonetic) (inaudible)?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Okay. So who are they and how are they
23 related to the business?
24 A. I have known these people, both of them
25 for a long time, (indiscernible) ten years I have
0032
1 known them. They're one of my best friend's
2 brothers. And how they're related to the business
3 is that they wanted to open up a lounge and they
4 came to me and they were very trusted.
5 And because I have known them for so many
6 years I wanted to give them a chance and wanted to
7 also not only that I wanted to expand the business
8 and there's a reason for it. The first reason is I
9 will give you if -- so they are in a business with
10 me right now.
11 Not on the same license, however, they're
12 in the Kent business license. It's for KBG
13 Investment Group, you already have it. It's for
14 Kazi's Hookah Lounge in Kent. Same brand, same
15 name. They're in a business with me. And when I
16 created them business license was in June, I
17 believe, or July, July 2017.
18 Before they been coming, and I know that
19 they come to the lounge, you know, we smoke hookah
20 or talk or, you know, things like that all the time.
21 But obviously in order to know a business or know
22 what you're doing or even open up for a business,
23 you're going to put your money into something like
24 that, you want to know the basic foundation of the
25 business by learning how the business works or what
0033
1 the clients feel or, you know, getting to know each
2 other, because you want to create a relationship
3 with them, customers, clients in this business which
4 is that's when the customer will respect you and
5 follow the lounge rule.
6 Like if you don't have a relationship with
7 the customer they will not respect you or even
8 listen to you if you tell them to sit down or leave
9 from the property, or if you tell them not to do
10 something or (indiscernible) or make sure your
11 (indiscernible). (Indiscernible) they will not
12 respect you unless you have a good connection with
13 them.
14 That's when they will respect -- "Okay,
15 Shadika said, you know, I shouldn't bring this or I
16 shouldn't hang out in the parking lot. I respect
17 her because I have known her for that long. I will
18 do as she said." That's kind of relationship we try
19 to maintain with them. That's when we have a very
20 good connection (indiscernible). Same thing, you
21 know, as (indiscernible), they want to do the same
22 thing. They want to feel like they're -- they're
23 young, you know, they're not old. They're young.
24 You know, older people, you know, the people of
25 their age they might not respect them.
0034
1 So in order to gain their respect you have
2 to talk to one another and you have to find out what
3 they like, you know, you have to see what's going on
4 with the business how within it operate so that way
5 it's good, effective business for future. Because
6 the way I look at it, everywhere I see there is
7 crime and violence. One group of people has problem
8 with the other group of people, somebody's from the
9 west side, somebody's from the east side, somebody's
10 from the south side, everywhere.
11 Now when I decided to open the one in
12 Kent, the reason is I had problem situation where I
13 don't want to see my ex. And she comes to the ex
14 and he see her with another man, now that's a
15 problem right there. But if both of them wants to
16 come to the same lounge because they like it, they
17 like that (indiscernible) coming here, but not to
18 see their ex with another person (indiscernible), so
19 something going to happen at that point.
20 So that's why what happened with some of
21 our members really appreciate it that there's a
22 second lounge. Now if they decide, okay, well, you
23 can come to the Renton, we can go to the Kent so we
24 don't see each other, so which is very nice because
25 now you don't have to see the person that you don't
0035
1 want to see.
2 And, for example, what we (indiscernible)
3 think about you have a bar and there's only one bar
4 in the whole Renton area that everybody goes to the
5 same bar, what's going to happen? I mean you would
6 probably see the person you don't want to see. You
7 will see the person you have problem with
8 (indiscernible). And you see that person and both
9 of you guys decide to come there because that's the
10 only bar, things will definitely happen that wine
11 bar or alcohol bar or club or something, something
12 will happen, versus you have multiple location in
13 same city then everybody is kind of went everywhere
14 and you don't associate with them.
15 Q. Okay. So, but to clarify, the two
16 gentlemen are associated with the Kent location --
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. -- not the Renton.
19 A. No.
20 Q. Okay. And you mentioned wine bar or
21 alcohol bar. To be clear, this is a hookah lounge.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. So would you please describe for the
24 record what is involved with the hookah? What is
25 smoked and what is that like? What is the
0036
1 atmosphere like?
2 A. Definitely. Hookah is very traditional.
3 It came from generation, from Empire Mughal time
4 very long ago, ancient (indiscernible), you know,
5 those times. It's very, very heritage for the
6 people in Middle East, for the people in South Asia.
7 This is something like if you think about
8 (indiscernible) lounge, you know, they will the same
9 things. This is heritage or (indiscernible).
10 They will say, "This is our culture."
11 That hookah is our culture. It came from many
12 generation. You know, back in the days they used to
13 do straight tobacco which is very strong and you can
14 smell it far, far away, probably, you know, two
15 miles away. But now, generation, it has been
16 changing in the Middle East. They're coming out
17 with flavor very light, sweet, has the sweet taste
18 to it, smell to -- you don't smell anything bad.
19 Where you cannot smell cigarette -- I
20 cannot smell cigarette or weed. I cannot be around
21 it and I will suffocate. And, you know, there are
22 times I went to, you know, casinos and this person
23 next to me smoking cigarette, I just have to --
24 okay, I cannot. Cannot leave the table at the same
25 time, but because I'm doing something
0037
1 (indiscernible), something that I have to go through
2 a lot during that time.
3 Anyways, so definitely this is a very
4 culture thing and it tastes good. And it has sweet
5 flavor, tasted that orange, peach, strawberry,
6 mango, things like that. How is it created, it has
7 a water pipe on the bottom so it's water and it goes
8 up. It has a flavor in a bowl, so whichever flavor
9 you like. It has oil on top and it has charcoal.
10 And we use coconut charcoal which is very natural
11 and it's good for health, I would say better than
12 (indiscernible).
13 So, and we use that and it stays good for
14 25 minutes to an hour. That charcoal lasts for a
15 long time compared to charcoal probably two minutes
16 max and it gives you headache, you know, have
17 problem. But coconut charcoal has a little bit more
18 dense, so it's very good. I have some sample of it.
19 So this is (indiscernible). And these are
20 00 we don't use because it gives you problems or --
21 yeah, so these are the ones. Yes, so that's how
22 hookah is.
23 Q. Okay, thank you. So almost wrapped up
24 here, if you would please turn to Exhibit COR-3.
25 A. COR-3.
0038
1 Q. You can see that this is a letter to the
2 City from Mr. Scott Neal?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And then it has an attachment and the
5 attachment begins, "Case History Report"?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. If you would, on the first page of that
8 attachment, do you see about two-thirds of the way
9 down there is an entry for 4/20/17?
10 A. Oh, yes.
11 Q. And it indicates that notice of violation,
12 warning and required by statute official
13 (indiscernible) issued via standard U.S. Mail?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Do you recall any notice of violation on
16 or around that date?
17 A. Let me see. I'm sure, you know,
18 (indiscernible) was mad about something. He gets
19 mad pretty quick. So, yes, (indiscernible).
20 Q. Do you have the violation that was noted
21 in here?
22 There is a violation attached to the
23 exhibit.
24 A. Oh.
25 Q. If you turn to Exhibit COR-1, if you thumb
0039
1 through, one of the attachments has the Public
2 Health logo at the top and is titled, "Notice of
3 Violation."
4 A. Okay, I don't understand (indiscernible)
5 say something about smoking (indiscernible) and
6 (indiscernible), so what is that? I mean I have no
7 idea.
8 Q. So for the purposes of the record, it
9 looks like we're about halfway through Exhibit 1 and
10 we're looking at a document with Public Health logo
11 at the top and it's titled, "Case Number
12 NA020170630-216. Do you see that?
13 A. Okay. N-0 -- NA020170630216.
14 Q. Yes.
15 A. Okay, I see that. It's on your COR-1.
16 Yes, right.
17 Q. So did you appeal this notice of
18 violation?
19 A. No, I did not because I'm not sure if I
20 ever received this. Oh, maybe I have because I saw
21 something like that came to me, actually, and I was
22 not sure what is unimproved nicotine delivery
23 (indiscernible).
24 Q. Yes.
25 A. I remember something like that, something
0040
1 in -- this was not the notice of violation on that
2 date. It was on that date I believe Fel came to
3 tell me that security is to be outside or it was on
4 (indiscernible), right?
5 Q. Yes. So for purposes of clarifying the
6 record, this, do you see about two-thirds of the way
7 down on that same page it states that the date of
8 violation is June 25th, 2017?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. So we are talking about a different date
11 than the April date just to clarify the record.
12 A. So we're talking about (indiscernible),
13 we're talking about (indiscernible). Sorry, this is
14 -- when is this violation was given, in April or
15 June?
16 Q. Well, it appears to me June, but if you'd
17 like to review it, that's fine.
18 A. Yes, I think I need to review it first.
19 It says in June 2017, but it was from April. That's
20 where you are? (Indiscernible) I'm not sure
21 exactly.
22 Q. So to clarify my question, you're looking
23 at the April 20th, 2017 entry so indicates
24 (indiscernible) report, and you weren't certain if
25 you recalled it or not so you asked if there was a
0041
1 notice of violation in the record, so then I pointed
2 you to a different notice of violation.
3 So I understand this, but you tell me if
4 you disagree. I understand the page that we're
5 looking at to be a different incident.
6 A. I have no idea. I cannot agree to
7 something until I find this, what exactly happened
8 to this.
9 Q. Actually I think you answered my question.
10 My question was simply whether you appealed it.
11 A. Oh.
12 Q. I understand your answer to be no.
13 A. No.
14 MS. CLARK: Okay, great. That
15 (indiscernible) my questions.
16 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, any other
17 witnesses, Ms. Clark?
18 MS. CLARK: Yes.
19 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay.
20 MS. CLARK: We would now like to call Ms.
21 Linda Welton.
22 HEARING EXAMINER: Do you swear or affirm
23 to tell the truth and nothing but truth in this
24 proceeding?
25 THE WITNESS: I do.
0042
1 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay.
2 LINDA WELTON, having been first duly sworn, was
3 examined, and testified as follows:
4 EXAMINATION
5 BY MS. CLARK:
6 Q. Thank you, Ms. Welton. Would you please
7 state your name for the record and describe what
8 your role is with the City of Renton?
9 A. I'm Linda Welton and I am the Business
10 License Coordinator in the Finance Department, and
11 my position is accounting assistant for --
12 Q. So in that capacity, do you have any
13 relationship to the City's Business Licensing
14 Department?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Would you please describe what that is?
17 A. So applications come in, I process the
18 applications, enter them, receive them. If there
19 (indiscernible) business it gets routed to two
20 departments, Code Compliance and Fire. Code
21 Compliance and Fire either approve or deny a
22 license, and then I do the final finishing of it,
23 printing it and mailing it to the (indiscernible).
24 Q. And so did you have a similar role as to
25 this particular business, Kazi's Hookah Lounge?
0043
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Okay. So let's work through some of the
3 exhibits. I'll first refer you to Exhibit COR-1.
4 So if you turn to page 5 of that letter, is that
5 your signature on this letter?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. So let's begin by talking about the
8 attachments to this letter. The next page is a, it
9 appears to be a business license application and Ms.
10 Kazi had testified that she had filled it out.
11 Could you explain using this form as guidance how
12 the application process works and what an applicant
13 needs to do in order to obtain a business license?
14 A. Well, they submit the application and pay
15 their fees that are associated with it. Again I
16 enter all the data into the system and then it does
17 get routed to those two different departments. What
18 they're looking for I don't know, but Code
19 Compliance and Fire. And then if it's approved,
20 then I do the final approval and send the license.
21 If it's denied then we deny it and usually
22 it's another department that will mail out the
23 denial letter because it's them that denied it, like
24 Code Compliance or Fire.
25 Q. And so what happened with this business
0044
1 license application?
2 A. So this application actually went in and
3 if I remember right it was processed and the license
4 was issued.
5 Q. Okay. And then what about -- fast
6 forward, what about any renewal process? Was there
7 a renewal application and what happened with the
8 renewal application?
9 A. So we sent out a renewal application in
10 2016 because this was submitted in '15. And then
11 the (indiscernible) business has reported all hours
12 worked in the city and their revenue and then the
13 license was renewed. Unless someone (indiscernible)
14 Code Compliance or another department says hold off
15 on that for a minute, we need to look some things up
16 and we need to do some research, then I would
17 (indiscernible).
18 Q. And did that happen with this business?
19 A. It did at one point. It was not this
20 early on (indiscernible).
21 Q. Okay. Did it happen subsequently?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And is that what led to us being here for
24 this appeal?
25 A. Yes.
0045
1 Q. Okay. We'll get into more details with
2 that. For now let's move deeper into the
3 attachments here. If you would turn a few more
4 pages and here's that there is a collection of
5 (indiscernible) pages. Have you reviewed these?
6 A. Yes, I have.
7 Q. Okay. So if you would walk us through
8 these pages, point out any references that you see
9 to employees or staff including security. And let
10 me back up. It appears that this is (indiscernible)
11 pages relating to Kazi's Hookah Lounge and the
12 Renton address, is that right?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. So these appear to be Yelp reviews for the
15 Kazi's (indiscernible), okay. So as I mentioned, if
16 you would walk us through and point out references
17 to employees or staff or security issues.
18 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, which exhibit
19 number are we looking at?
20 MS. CLARK: This is Exhibit 1, COR-1, and
21 it is the Yelp reviews that are about halfway
22 through.
23 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, great. Thank
24 you.
25 THE WITNESS: So the first thing I notice
0046
1 on here is it says that her business is open from
2 3:00 to 1:00 a.m. And on the application and
3 letters that were submitted the business is supposed
4 to be open, I think it was 5:00. 5:00 to 1:00 is
5 what was put on one of the applications. And so
6 right there the earlier start than what we were told
7 they were going to do.
8 When I see the belly dancer it kind of
9 questions do they pay for a belly dancer? Is she an
10 independent contractor? If she is, then she
11 (indiscernible).
12 "Great customer service" would kind of
13 point to me that there might be employees. On the
14 second page of that first line, the fourth one down,
15 "The staff are lovely and show they value business,"
16 so that to me would be employees.
17 Another one does speak about security
18 guards, so that would be another thing. The
19 security guards are paid. Was he an employee of the
20 lounge or is he an independent contractor?
21 And there is references like on the page 3
22 of 5, right under the picture, "ample parking,
23 (indiscernible) friendly and helpful staff,"
24 (indiscernible). So that would indicate to me that
25 there is actually employees there, and that pretty
0047
1 much (indiscernible).
2 BY MS. CLARK:
3 Q. Okay. And then following the Yelp reviews
4 it appears that there are Facebook reviews and posts
5 that (indiscernible); do you see those?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And did you review those as well?
8 A. Yes, I did.
9 Q. And did you see similar references to
10 employees and staff?
11 A. Yes, "Best atmosphere, service, crew and
12 entertainment." So the service and the crew, so
13 that to me would be (indiscernible).
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. And there are quite a few here.
16 Q. Okay, so backing up from the attachments
17 to the letter itself, would you please describe what
18 the purpose of this letter was?
19 A. The first letter?
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. So just describe it?
22 Q. Yes.
23 A. Okay. This is just to ask the King County
24 Health Board of what they've done so far to this
25 point and how many inspections they've had and
0048
1 pretty much just kind of letting them know that
2 we're (indiscernible) right now.
3 Q. Okay. Let's move then to Exhibit COR-3.
4 This is a letter dated April 16th, 2018 to Renton
5 City Attorney from Mr. Scott Neal. Have you
6 reviewed a copy of this letter?
7 A. Yes, I did.
8 Q. And do you understand it to be Public
9 Health response to the letter that we were just
10 talking about?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Let's move then to Exhibit 4. And again
13 if you turn to page 5, would you please confirm
14 whether that is your signature?
15 A. Yes, it is.
16 Q. Okay. So this is a letter dated April
17 19th that you sent to Ms. Kazi; is that right?
18 A. That's correct.
19 Q. So it appears in this letter that the City
20 concluded that Kazi's was a public place and a place
21 of employment; is that right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And that was based in part on the County's
24 letter?
25 A. And also on hours worked that they put on
0049
1 their business license renewal.
2 Q. Okay. Would you please describe what you
3 mean by that?
4 A. So on the business license renewal we ask
5 for hours worked by all employees or everyone, and
6 they did list that on the renewal 4,858 hours
7 worked.
8 Q. Okay, so based on information from Public
9 Health and the hours worked, this letter then denies
10 the renewal of the business license --
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. -- and ordered the business to close; is
13 that right?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. So then I'm going to ask you about several
16 exhibits at once. Ms. Weldon, would you please
17 confirm whether or not it's correct that Exhibits 5
18 through 8 are appeal correspondence between the City
19 and Ms. Kazi?
20 A. 7, yes. 8, yeah, direct correspondence
21 from Kazi to us. Yes.
22 Q. Okay. And is it your understanding that
23 after this exchange of appeal correspondence that
24 the City's position didn't change, that the City
25 maintained its denial of the business license
0050
1 renewal and its order to close the business?
2 A. Yes, it is.
3 MS. CLARK: Okay. Thank you, Ms. Weldon.
4 That concludes my questions.
5 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay.
6 Ms. Kazi, do you have any questions of Ms.
7 Weldon?
8 MS. KAZI: Yeah. I mean --
9 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, go ahead.
10 MS. KAZI: -- I'm not sure if I'm supposed
11 to (indiscernible) the things right now or
12 (indiscernible) --
13 HEARING EXAMINER: Well, if you want
14 information from Ms. Weldon you need to ask her the
15 questions now.
16 MS. KAZI: Information, no.
17 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, that's fine.
18 MS. KAZI: (Indiscernible).
19 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, all right.
20 Okay, Ms. Clark?
21 MS. CLARK: The City's next witness is Ms.
22 Donna Locher.
23 HEARING EXAMINER: All right, Ms. Locher,
24 do you swear or affirm to tell the truth and nothing
25 but the truth in this proceeding?
0051
1 THE WITNESS: I do.
2 DONNA LOCHER, having been first duly sworn, was
3 examined, and testified as follows:
4 EXAMINATION
5 BY MS. CLARK:
6 Q. Thank you, Ms. Locher. Would you please
7 state your name and position with the City for the
8 record?
9 A. Sure. I'm Donna Locher. I'm the lead
10 Code Compliance Inspector for the City of Renton.
11 Q. And, Ms. Locher, in that capacity do you
12 have a role with business licensing in the City?
13 A. I do.
14 Q. And would you please describe that?
15 A. Yes. I check every business license that
16 -- new business license that comes into the city. I
17 check for zoning, location. I check occupancy to
18 make sure whether a business is going into that
19 building is okay, and either approve it or ask for
20 additional information or I deny it based on it not
21 being legal.
22 Q. Okay. And did you have any role with this
23 particular business, Kazi's, as to business
24 licensing?
25 A. I did.
0052
1 Q. Okay. Would you please describe that?
2 A. When they first came in and applied for a
3 license in the very beginning I denied the business
4 license.
5 Q. And what was the basis for that?
6 A. The basis was that it was a hookah lounge,
7 indoor smoking. We didn't have any information from
8 the Kazi's Hookah Lounge as to what that entailed,
9 how they operated, who was there. I needed more
10 information and I denied the license.
11 Q. Okay. And, finally, to Code Enforcement's
12 knowledge is the business still operating?
13 A. Yes.
14 MS. CLARK: Okay, thank you. That
15 concludes my questions.
16 HEARING EXAMINER: All right.
17 Ms. Kazi, do you have any questions for
18 Ms. Locher?
19 MS. KAZI: Yes.
20 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay.
21 EXAMINATION
22 BY MS. KAZI:
23 Q. Ms. Donna, I want to ask you, you said you
24 actually denied the business license at first.
25 A. I did.
0053
1 Q. Do you recall what your day or month that
2 you had denied (indiscernible)?
3 A. It was whenever you first applied for your
4 business license.
5 Q. So it was 2015 in April?
6 A. Could be, yes.
7 MS. KAZI: Could be, okay. So, okay,
8 thank you.
9 THE WITNESS: Sure, no problem.
10 HEARING EXAMINER: Thank you, Ms. Locher.
11 MS. CLARK: Okay, at this time the City
12 would like to call Mr. Scott Neal.
13 HEARING EXAMINER: All right, Mr. Neal, do
14 you swear or affirm to tell the truth and nothing
15 but the truth in this proceeding?
16 THE WITNESS: I do.
17 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay.
18 SCOTT NEAL, having been first duly sworn, was
19 examined, and testified as follows:
20 EXAMINATION
21 BY MS. CLARK:
22 Q. Thank you, Mr. Neal. Would you please
23 state your name and employment position for the
24 record?
25 A. Sure, my name is Scott Neal and I manage
0054
1 the Tobacco Prevention Program for Public Health
2 (indiscernible).
3 Q. Thank you. So are you familiar with the
4 business that is the subject of the hearing today,
5 Kazi's Hookah Lounge in Renton?
6 A. I'm as familiar with it (indiscernible),
7 so yes.
8 Q. Okay, thank you, and because in your
9 capacity you have had some involvement with the
10 business?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. I'm going to hand you a copy of COR-1,
13 Exhibit 1, and if you would take a moment to look at
14 it to familiarize yourself with the context
15 (indiscernible).
16 A. Okay.
17 Q. So this appears to be a letter and Ms.
18 Weldon testified to it, but that is addressed to
19 you. Do you recall receiving it?
20 A. Yes, I do.
21 Q. And so it was a request from the City for
22 Public Health to look further into indoor smoking
23 issues as to Kazi's; is that a fair
24 characterization?
25 A. Yes, that's correct.
0055
1 Q. So one of the attachments is the notice of
2 violation that Ms. Kazi was testifying about that is
3 about, I don't know, halfway through the packet. It
4 appears to be signed by you and I just wanted to
5 confirm whether that was correct, if this was the
6 notice of violation that you had issued.
7 A. This is a notice of violation and
8 correction order, so it's we title those notice of
9 orders. Essentially a notice of violation is the
10 first official notice that we supply to someone who
11 is in violation which it looks similar to
12 (indiscernible). If we were also copying this
13 document or mailing it we would provide it, but this
14 is the actual one that says, "Now you have had a
15 violation at least twice and you are now fined
16 (indiscernible)," and (indiscernible).
17 Q. Okay, thank you. Would you walk us
18 through it and explain what it means as to Kazi's?
19 A. Yes. So it's addressed to Kazi's Hookah
20 Lounge and it's basically notifying them that they
21 are in violation of state law RCW 70.160 and also
22 (indiscernible) health codes that are similar in
23 that they're smoking (indiscernible). And then it
24 basically says, it identifies 19.03.050,
25 (indiscernible) smoking (indiscernible). It talks
0056
1 about the different places that they're in
2 violation. It talks about the dates of violation,
3 civil penalty and notice here, and below that and a
4 correction order which is (indiscernible) smoking in
5 all public places and places of employment
6 (indiscernible) the business, and then it provides
7 an appeal process (indiscernible).
8 Q. To your knowledge, was that notice
9 (indiscernible) appealed?
10 A. No, it was not.
11 Q. Now I'm going to hand to you Exhibit 3,
12 (indiscernible) 3. So this appears to be a letter
13 dated April 16th, 2018 to the City Attorney of the
14 City of Renton from you; is that correct?
15 A. That's correct.
16 Q. Would you please describe the contents of
17 this letter and give us an overview of what it
18 attaches?
19 A. Yes. This was a letter that I put
20 together to respond to the City of Renton's request
21 about the case history on this location. So the
22 letter briefly summarizes the case history, the
23 first part of the actual letter content and the
24 second piece to this is the case history report. So
25 there's a summary of each inspection
0057
1 (indiscernible).
2 Q. Okay, thank you. So now let's take a step
3 back and provide some context for this exchange of
4 correspondence. Would you please describe for the
5 hearing examiner what your role is within Public
6 Health, but then also Public Health's role as to
7 (indiscernible) smoking issues?
8 A. Yeah, so (indiscernible) Public Health
9 Department's role, RCW 70.160 is the state's
10 secondhand smoke law. (Indiscernible) also adopted
11 a local code that basically mirrors that and adds
12 clarifying definitions and different things to help
13 -- not help enforcement, help implement the
14 enforcement of the state law.
15 And so the Health Department has the
16 authority to enforce smoking ban, if you will, in
17 places (indiscernible). So my job as the manager of
18 the program is to oversee our inspector's case
19 reports. And before any notices of violations go
20 out or (indiscernible) and fees, those get -- we sit
21 down and we review the history and then I approve
22 that, that notice to go out. So that's my role.
23 Q. Okay. And so when we're looking at the
24 notice and order a moment ago for Kazi's, did that
25 background reviewing that case history happen with
0058
1 Kazi's?
2 A. Yes, it did.
3 Q. And so now coming back to this Exhibit 3
4 that we've been talking about, with the background
5 about Public Health's role in terms of the -- in
6 your smoking ban, what conclusions, if any, was
7 Public Health drawing in this letter?
8 A. It's my recollection and based on the
9 letter here that we had visited Kazi's a number of
10 times and in every time we found one reason or
11 another to deem them in violation. The way the law
12 works is that you have to pass both tests.
13 (Indiscernible) public place, you cannot be a public
14 place and you cannot have employees. It only takes
15 one side to be in violation and at any one time
16 something was causing it to be in violation.
17 Q. And so it was your conclusion that the
18 business was operating in violation of the indoor
19 smoking ban?
20 A. That is correct.
21 Q. So let's move on then Exhibit 9. I'm
22 actually going to hand you four exhibits at once.
23 So here are 9 through 12, and if you would look at
24 Exhibit 9 and it appears again to be a letter signed
25 by you. Could you please confirm whether that's
0059
1 correct and then describe what this letter was meant
2 to do?
3 A. Yes. This is a letter signed by me. This
4 was sent out to all known private smoking facilities
5 that this was a cover letter essentially to a couple
6 of documents that are identified in here. That
7 there was determination by our department that there
8 will be re-issues of guidelines for businesses that
9 wish to become smoking, officially smoking private
10 facilities, because there's always a claim of
11 (indiscernible) understanding what the law
12 (indiscernible) and interpretation of the law, so we
13 were aiming to provide some clarity of that.
14 Q. Okay. And so you mentioned that the
15 letter attaches to documents. The first one is
16 titled, it begins with FAQ. Is that Exhibit 10 in
17 your packet? Is that the same document?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Okay. And then the cover letter also
20 references a document titled, "Information for
21 Private Smoking Facilities." Would you look and
22 confirm whether that is Exhibit 11?
23 A. Yes. That is (indiscernible).
24 Q. And is Exhibit 11 also referred to by
25 Public Health sometimes in the guidelines?
0060
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. All right. So let's then turn to Exhibit
3 10, the Frequently Asked Questions exhibit, and if
4 you would walk us through what this document
5 explains.
6 A. This basically is kind of a simple way to
7 understand the secondhand smoke law and how we
8 (indiscernible) to help clarify what public place
9 is, where is it prohibited, provide some examples
10 (indiscernible) and (indiscernible). It also goes
11 into place of employment issues and what
12 (indiscernible) employment, what employees are. It
13 talks about when the business may (indiscernible)
14 smoking and then the signage that is required, as
15 well as who's enforcing this law, how it applied to
16 (indiscernible) and folks who are concerned about
17 this (indiscernible). And then it goes over the
18 (indiscernible) violations (indiscernible).
19 Q. And so for the cover letter that is
20 Exhibit 9, the Public Health intended the Frequently
21 Asked Questions document be sent to all hookah
22 lounge operators?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And so for the frequently asked questions
25 and the descriptions that you mentioned about
0061
1 smoking in public places and places of employment,
2 does Public Health uniformly apply these provisions
3 to all hookah lounges?
4 A. We uniformly apply these to all businesses
5 that allow smoking.
6 Q. Okay, (indiscernible).
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. So let's then move to Exhibit 11, the
9 guidelines. And a similar question as to the
10 previous exhibit, would you walk us through these
11 guidelines and walk us even into some of the detail
12 about what Public Health has determined in terms of
13 guidelines for places of employment and a public
14 place and how that played out in terms of what
15 Public Health looks for in its inspections.
16 A. Sure. This is a little more detailed than
17 the last one because (indiscernible) is really
18 relative to how the whole law is enforced across the
19 board. This was designed to provide those folks
20 that wish to be private smoking facilities and
21 actually allow smoking, this was sort of a deeper
22 dive into the interpretations around the law that
23 we're using to deem whether they're in violation or
24 not.
25 And so we kind of quickly go into places
0062
1 of employment which is the first test and talk about
2 with what they must be operated without employees
3 and what employees look like, people who work for
4 employer for exchanges for wages or profit, people
5 who volunteer their services (indiscernible).
6 Those, even like contract services are we would
7 probably (indiscernible) health code (indiscernible)
8 employees.
9 So we want to make that very clear that
10 this means really only the owner can operate
11 (indiscernible), could operate (indiscernible). And
12 then it talks about public place and provides a
13 number of guidelines that it's a little bit harder
14 for us to say you're public or private because
15 there's not a clear delineation that we must do
16 this. And so we've created, based on our legal
17 attorneys and case law, background, research
18 (indiscernible), go over things that if we would use
19 in conjunction together that would make it look like
20 a private facility.
21 And so there's a number of places, items
22 which include (indiscernible), not open to just
23 anybody who walks in, restrictions on exterior
24 signage so that it doesn't look like a grocery
25 store. We also, it's also important to us that
0063
1 there's no secondhand smoke (indiscernible) clearly,
2 public places, and then only approved members should
3 be permitted and not just anybody from the public.
4 Frequent key criteria for a private facility in our
5 estimation are there must be selective criteria, so
6 it can't just be anybody. There has to be a reason
7 why some are members and some aren't members.
8 Restricted to members only and then legal smoking
9 age, for instance, and then limited to 2,500 active
10 members at any one time.
11 Then there's it talks more about sort of
12 what's the process of becoming a member. And one of
13 the things that a business would need to show us to
14 sort of prove that there are actually official
15 members that are in this (indiscernible) and that
16 included application processes, recommendations for
17 your current members, you know, signed membership
18 forms, membership lists to show us how many members,
19 those type of things that would help corroborate,
20 you know, those key issues about. And then to have
21 those records available for inspections so that we
22 can prove (indiscernible).
23 Q. Okay. And so again a similar question as
24 to the FAQs document, does Public Health uniformly
25 apply these guidelines to all indoor smoking
0064
1 facilities?
2 A. Absolutely.
3 Q. And so was a (indiscernible) conclusion
4 based in the letter that is the Exhibit 3 that
5 Kazi's did not meet the guidelines for place of
6 employment and public place?
7 A. Yes, they did not.
8 Q. So in your experience could a hookah
9 lounge meet the guidelines of Exhibit 11?
10 A. It has not been my experience that any of
11 the hookah lounges are operating (indiscernible)
12 right now. It would be very difficult at best to
13 operate what (indiscernible) and because of the
14 state laws (indiscernible).
15 Q. Okay, and in terms of the rule of
16 inspecting hookah lounges or other indoor smoking
17 locations for compliance, is that something that
18 your colleague, Mr. Pajimula, does for example for
19 this Kazi's Hookah Lounge?
20 A. Yes. That's one of his duties, yes.
21 Q. And so then does he work with you or come
22 back with you about the details of his findings
23 about inspections?
24 A. Yes, he does.
25 Q. And so for this Kazi's business, was it a
0065
1 collaboration of information from him that fed in
2 part into your letter that we've been talking about
3 where you concluded that was a place of employment
4 and a public place?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. So at this point from the testimony that
7 you've heard from Ms. Kazi today and then the
8 documents that we have, does Public Health have any
9 change in perspective on whether the business is
10 operating in compliance with the indoor smoking ban?
11 A. We would have to obviously inspect it
12 again to know how we're operating today, but no,
13 there's no change that I would see from testimony
14 today that would indicate that it's been changed
15 (indiscernible).
16 MS. CLARK: Okay, thank you,
17 (indiscernible).
18 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, Ms. Kazi, any
19 questions of Mr. Neal?
20 MS. KAZI: Yes, I (indiscernible).
21 EXAMINATION
22 BY MS. KAZI:
23 Q. I wanted to know what is the law of
24 Washington State regarding a smoking facility that
25 allows smoking not just from the Public Department
0066
1 (sic), from the Washington State law.
2 A. The Washington State law, it's one of the
3 strictest laws in the nation and it prohibits
4 smoking in any public place. A public place is
5 clearly defined as any business or building that's
6 open to the public (indiscernible). Not just
7 (indiscernible) that also -- and a place of
8 employment is also that second test.
9 So you can't have smoking in place, a
10 public place, business or building that's open to
11 the public and any place that doesn't have, or has
12 employees. So if there's any employees working you
13 cannot have that. That (indiscernible) to some
14 degree. So --
15 Q. Okay. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd
16 like to know it says in the Washington State law
17 obviously everything about the employee and open to
18 public. It's explained 25 feet away, ventilation
19 (indiscernible). We know all that. Besides that it
20 says exception, this chapter is not intended to
21 regulate smoking in a private, enclosed or place,
22 within a public place even though such workplace may
23 be visited by a nonsmoker.
24 A. Yeah, that's an awkward -- I would say
25 that I don't know how to quite interpret that. I'm
0067
1 not an attorney and we haven't had a situation like
2 that one. I think that meant -- and I want to
3 remind everyone that this was an initiative so it
4 was not written by the legislature and so there are
5 some issues with that. That's not something that's
6 to my knowledge ever been tested (indiscernible)
7 what that really means. That does not appear to be
8 what -- that's not how -- we would not interpret
9 this situation to follow in that.
10 Q. So what is -- as far as I know Health
11 Department rules on making sure that all the
12 restaurants, bars -- so if you were to go in a bar
13 and you see some business owner letting their
14 customers smoke or light up a cigarette, that would
15 be initially a problem for the State because the
16 State wants to see clean air in places like public,
17 like schools, bars, restaurant. You know, they want
18 the customers, all the customers not to breathe the
19 second smoke hand (sic); am I right?
20 A. That's, I believe, the (indiscernible) --
21 Q. Yes. So that is why the law came
22 (indiscernible) because (indiscernible) cigarette
23 over here, you know, and then everybody will get
24 (indiscernible) in smoke. So that's something are
25 important as far as the Public Health Department to
0068
1 make sure all these laws (indiscernible).
2 They want, you know, making sure the minors are not
3 getting access to the, you know, cigarettes or any
4 kind of smoking. If you're underage, you know, the
5 state law under 18 you cannot have a cigarette, you
6 know, purchase or nobody can sell it to you. Those
7 are the laws as much as I know of the health
8 official wants to make sure that this is
9 (indiscernible), right?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. Okay. So by that, so this statement right
12 here it says, "Private enclosed workplace within a
13 public place, even though (indiscernible)."
14 (Indiscernible). The other thing that I wanted to
15 ask you is (indiscernible) one second. So would you
16 please define to me how is Kazi's open to public?
17 A. I would have to go through each of the
18 inspections to recall exactly what each
19 determination was. But there were a number of times
20 that we didn't either get a membership list wasn't
21 provided so there was no way for us to know if there
22 was members or customers and how that
23 (indiscernible) became members. I mean there's a
24 number of different things that I would, you know,
25 (indiscernible) a recollection of how each
0069
1 inspections work out.
2 Q. Okay. And what about the (indiscernible)
3 if you have it -- wait, I have it here.
4 A. Yeah.
5 Q. (Indiscernible) right now, this is
6 something that I have never seen before. This is
7 something that's recently came (indiscernible).
8 A. To clarify, Exhibit 12 is what our
9 inspector uses to create notes and so he follows
10 sort of -- it's an inspection checklist, if you
11 will, note area, note taking area. So it's based
12 off the interpretation, the guidelines that we
13 provided. This is information from businesses so
14 that information given you is that also checks when
15 we're out there.
16 Q. So this is not something I'm supposed to,
17 this is something that you have your inspector have
18 carry with him while they inspect the place?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. Yeah, this is why I was wondering I never
21 see (indiscernible).
22 And one more question, did the laws of
23 Washington, they stated that smoking lounge needs to
24 (indiscernible), facility, sorry.
25 A. There's one sentence in the definition of
0070
1 public place that if I recall it correctly,
2 (indiscernible) is that I think you quoted it in
3 that this is -- or maybe that this is not intended
4 to prohibit smoking in a private facility when that
5 private facility is not open to the public
6 (indiscernible).
7 Q. Oh, that's another one. Gee, I didn't
8 (indiscernible), but that is another one. So that's
9 saying it's a different one and I think it's right
10 here. This is chapter is not intended for regular
11 smoking in a private -- okay, I have that one.
12 Sorry. This chapter is not intended to restrict
13 (indiscernible) smoking in a private facility
14 (indiscernible) location open to public except
15 (indiscernible) location when facility's open to the
16 public. That quoting I even don't understand,
17 because except when it doesn't make sense.
18 The facility -- that's why I
19 (indiscernible), I read the other one which made
20 sense. So I believe what it meant when it says this
21 chapter is not intended to regulate smoking in
22 private, enclosed workplace. So workplace basically
23 where you have employees, right? So in places like,
24 let's say, a restaurant or an office, so you have
25 employees there.
0071
1 So if there is a room over there and it is
2 closed, so it's okay to go there to smoke which is
3 still in a public places because office is a public
4 places. If you have (indiscernible) open to general
5 public to come and work there and there is a private
6 place which is a room that it is okay. And it says
7 that room could be visited by a nonsmoker as well
8 which is not a big deal.
9 Like somebody like me, let's say I am
10 smoking in this room and it says smoking
11 (indiscernible). Close the door. You can unlock
12 it, you know, maybe somebody over here wants to come
13 say hi to me and just come say hi and they don't
14 like the smell (indiscernible), or if they want to
15 be in it, then they can be inside and it's
16 individual rights (indiscernible) choice
17 (indiscernible).
18 A. I think there's some confusion of what's
19 in the definitions and then the piece that you keep
20 referring to, private workplace with a nonsmoking
21 area or whatever it's titled is an actual separate
22 section (indiscernible) law. I think the way we
23 look at that, that is not what is operating because
24 then you would say -- it would for instance, if
25 there was a backroom in your establishment, if it
0072
1 was your private office, theoretically under that
2 other section that may or may not be able to allow
3 smoking.
4 But that would then deem the rest of your
5 place a public place which means the rest of the
6 location could not allow smoking. That's not
7 exactly what's going on here. I think what's going
8 on here is more clearly around the definition of
9 what a place of employment is and also public place
10 including that sentence that talks about private,
11 you know, private facilities. That's where this
12 case is really revolved around (indiscernible).
13 MS. KAZI: Okay. I think that should be
14 all the information (indiscernible).
15 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, any redirect, Ms.
16 Clark?
17 MS. CLARK: None.
18 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, thank you, Mr.
19 Neal. I appreciate you coming down again.
20 MS. CLARK: The City's final witness is
21 Mr. Fel Pajimula.
22 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay.
23 All right, do you swear or affirm to tell
24 the truth and nothing but the truth in this
25 proceeding?
0073
1 THE WITNESS: I do.
2 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay.
3 FELS PAJIMULA, having veen first duly sworn, was
4 examined, and testified as follows:
5 EXAMINATION
6 BY MS. CLARK:
7 Q. Thank you, Mr. Pajimula. Would you please
8 state your name and title with Public Health for the
9 record?
10 A. Yes. My name is Fel Pajimula. I'm
11 officially with the County. My position is Health
12 Program Assistant. I wear multiple different hats
13 in regards to this hearing today. I am inspector of
14 the (indiscernible) smoking (indiscernible) places
15 of employment.
16 Q. And in that role did you perform
17 inspections at the Kazi business in Renton?
18 A. I did, yes.
19 Q. Okay. So I'm going to hand you a
20 collection of exhibits. And if you would, let's
21 start with the one on top, Exhibit COR-3.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. So that document, again we talked about it
24 a couple times with other witnesses. It's a letter
25 but there's an attachment entitled, "Inspection Case
0074
1 History." Do you see that?
2 A. Case history report?
3 Q. Yes.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Okay. And so, first of all, would you
6 please thumb through this and let us know if this is
7 a summation of your inspections of the Kazi business
8 at Renton?
9 A. Yeah, it appears to be. I remember
10 submitting a number of dates and brief detail
11 overviews of the inspection that I conducted,
12 submitted them to Scott Neal and he wrote this.
13 Q. Okay, great. So by way of, I guess,
14 refreshing your memory as to what he found on
15 various inspection dates, let me walk you multiple
16 the dates on this sheet. Let's begin with January
17 4th, 2017. And it says that you conducted an
18 educational visit on that day. What's an
19 educational visit?
20 A. So in regards to (indiscernible), as Scott
21 mentioned there was a private facility guideline
22 document that was put together and so we went
23 through the process of trying to educate all
24 facilities that were allowing smoking to understand
25 or to receive our understanding of the way the law
0075
1 works and how we would be responding and applying
2 that law to a business.
3 Q. Okay. So on January 4th, 2017 that's what
4 you were doing (indiscernible)?
5 A. Yeah, so that visit (indiscernible) to
6 make sure they got the facility, the private smoking
7 facility guideline document in hand and it wasn't an
8 actual inspection.
9 Q. Okay. And so in that packet of exhibits
10 that I gave you, if you would find Exhibit marked
11 COR-11.
12 A. Okay.
13 Q. And would you confirm whether or not that
14 is the document that you were referring to as having
15 given Ms. Kazi on the January 4th, 2017 date?
16 A. Correct. I carry multiple copies of this
17 with me during my inspections and hand it over
18 whenever somebody claims they didn't see it.
19 (Indiscernible).
20 Q. Okay, great. Now let's move down to the
21 next entry, February 23rd, 2017. So this entry
22 appears that in contrast to the previous which was
23 an educational visit, this appears to have been an
24 inspection; is that correct?
25 A. To my recollection, yes.
0076
1 Q. Okay. And so to your recollection, what
2 occurred, what were your findings? What did you see
3 upon that inspection?
4 A. Well, something that was mentioned
5 earlier, I do have a kind of an outline document
6 that guides me through what to observe and what to
7 request when I'm conducting an inspection. And this
8 was quite a long time ago so and that's part of the
9 reason why we take reports and put them into our
10 databases. That's so we can recall what happens
11 long ago.
12 And then look, you know, this one it looks
13 like I observed some signage outside which is
14 something that's identified in the smoking
15 (indiscernible), smoking facility document. And I
16 had unrestricted access to the entrance of the
17 business, whereas I didn't, you know, it was
18 unlocked. I was able to enter and get access to
19 (indiscernible).
20 Q. And does that particular finding have any
21 particular meaning as to public place?
22 A. Yeah. In the guideline document it does
23 state that a business should be restricted entry and
24 should not be accessible by anybody from
25 (indiscernible).
0077
1 Q. What else did you find on that inspection?
2 A. (Indiscernible) Ms. Kazi was not able to
3 provide accurate membership details to demonstrate
4 application and approval process of the membership.
5 That goes back to the guideline document which
6 outlined our request to see applications and written
7 records of their members.
8 Q. And it looks like you observed a male
9 security person working inside. Is that a correct
10 reading of this inspection report?
11 A. In a number of inspections there was an
12 individual. I don't see where I might have noted
13 that in my observation. Oh, there it is. Yeah,
14 (indiscernible).
15 Q. Okay. And you mentioned that that was
16 something that you witnessed a number of times on
17 your visits to Kazi's --
18 A. Yeah.
19 Q. -- security working inside?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Okay. So then there is an entry, I guess
22 it's the next entry, April 20th, 2017, a notice of
23 violation issue. And what was the reason for
24 issuing the notice of violation?
25 A. I would imagine this notice of violation
0078
1 was issued based on the inspection that occurred in
2 February. And looking at the report notes it could,
3 it would have been, one, open to the public because
4 I was able to access it unrestricted; and two, place
5 of employment because there was a security guard
6 working inside (indiscernible).
7 Q. Okay. So let's then move to the 6/25/2017
8 entry and it appears that this is also another
9 inspection entry. So would you again please
10 summarize what he found on that inspection date?
11 A. Sure. 6/25, again (indiscernible) Kazi's,
12 I was able to approach and enter the front door and
13 was greeted by a male security guard who again was
14 on the inside of the establishment. And then I was
15 able to identify Ms. Kazi in the general smoking
16 area and just observed the interactions of Ms. Kazi
17 and a couple other individuals.
18 Having what this brief report is capturing
19 is that it appeared that those individuals were
20 (indiscernible), but either way (indiscernible).
21 And then let's see, it looks like when I brought up
22 the fact that the security guard was inside, Ms.
23 Kazi asked him to step outside. I observed a large
24 number of individuals inside.
25 At the time I was also carrying a CO
0079
1 monitor which monitors high exposure to carbon
2 monoxide and that's based on (indiscernible). It's
3 just something that we're collecting to just kind of
4 have information for as far as my health and safety
5 is for when I'm conducting these inspections.
6 And I was made aware of partners in the
7 business that Ms. Kazi (indiscernible).
8 Q. So then the next entry, 6/30/2017, states
9 that a notice of violation (indiscernible) were
10 issued. Do you know what the basis for that was?
11 A. I would deem 6/30 notice of violation was
12 created for the inspection that occurred on 6/25.
13 Again because of the employee that was inside the
14 area. And looking through that last paragraph on
15 the inspection notes is inaccurate, not an up-to-
16 date full membership list (indiscernible).
17 Q. And then is it a correct reading of the
18 next entry, 7/12/2017, that on that date Public
19 Health received a confirmation that a notice and
20 order had been delivered?
21 A. Correct. So that notice and order does
22 get sent certified mail and we send it with a return
23 postcard, so when somebody does receive it a person
24 has to sign and that postcard comes back to us to
25 confirm that that notice and order did receive --
0080
1 did arrive at the recipient, intended person.
2 Q. So then moving down to now we're in
3 October, October 30th of 2017, it looks like this is
4 another inspection entry. Would you please
5 summarize what you found on that day?
6 A. Sure, conducted another late-night
7 inspection. When I was inside the business I did
8 identify who I later learned to be Ms. Kazi's sister
9 performing her function. She was taking orders from
10 the individuals who were requesting pipes. So when
11 somebody's needing a pipe that Ms. Kazi described
12 what that is, but those individuals aren't typically
13 putting them together themselves.
14 So it's kind of, you know, fast food-ish
15 where somebody orders, somebody puts together your
16 (indiscernible). So according to my notes, Ms.
17 Kazi's sister was taking, at least taking orders
18 well inside the business, and then it was that
19 Victor Cousarez was performing work as well. He was
20 packing the hookahs and delivering them to the
21 individuals throughout the establishment.
22 Various levels of CO readings as I moved
23 about the facility, and then again Ms. Kazi was not
24 able to produce accurate records of (indiscernible)
25 establishment as a private facility, which is when I
0081
1 request membership documentation. The guideline
2 document says up-to-date and accurate and that's all
3 I'm looking for is up-to-date and accurate.
4 I think the easiest, the first question is
5 how many members do you have (indiscernible). If
6 you can't give me a firm answer, that's not an
7 accurate answer, so. And then it says that I
8 determined (indiscernible) at the time and advised
9 them during this visit that they were in violation.
10 Q. So it appears that there's one final entry
11 in this list and that is April 5th, 2018, which is
12 just I believe 11 days before Mr. Neal issued his
13 letter. This also indicates another inspection
14 record. Would you please again summarize what you
15 found on this date?
16 A. Sure. I entered the business via the
17 front door, which is again not locked, and had
18 unrestricted entry to the business. So this is
19 something that's prohibited, something that I
20 brought up multiple times during the inspections,
21 and if the public has access to the business that
22 would essentially lead to a violation of the
23 guidelines which is our interpretation of the RCW.
24 Once inside the business I made contact
25 with the security person again who was identified as
0082
1 (indiscernible), so the security guard was again
2 working inside, making it a place of employment.
3 This individual was checking IDs and I believe I did
4 observe him checking IDs that evening.
5 I spoke with Victor who at one point I did
6 verify he was on the business license and he
7 contacted Ms. Kazi on the phone to come speak with
8 me. And while I was waiting for Ms. Kazi, I just
9 double checked and verified that the products that
10 they were using as far as putting into their pipes,
11 which was off of our (indiscernible) tobacco.
12 Again I used the CO monitor so got
13 readings of that and I exited the business to
14 mitigate my secondhand smoke exposure while I waited
15 for Ms. Kazi. When she arrived I requested and
16 asked about new memberships and looked for
17 documentation of, you know, accurate records and
18 again it wasn't provided to me.
19 And she did state that they were open
20 every day of the week and they always operated with
21 (indiscernible) access. I know we had a lot of
22 discussion about converting from an electronic
23 record to (indiscernible). And so there wasn't
24 again an accurate listing or recordkeeping of the
25 current members as far as application, approval,
0083
1 dues date, anything and things like that. I think
2 in this specific inspection nothing was
3 (indiscernible).
4 Q. So now if you would turn back to Exhibit
5 11, the guidelines document, and based on your
6 description of the various inspection dates, would
7 you walk us through the guideline documents and
8 describe what elements of the guidelines were being
9 met or not being met based on your inspection
10 reports?
11 A. Sure. So when I do an inspection I bring
12 all the information I can get off this and as a team
13 we determine how to move forward on those
14 observations. As I went over with those multiple
15 inspections, place of employment that was something
16 that the one big test that wasn't passed multiple
17 times as far as the security guard being on the
18 inside as well as Ms. Kazi's sister performing work.
19 So that's a violation in that sense as far as a
20 place of employment.
21 The multiple tiers of public place is
22 something that we go over. Scott mentioned
23 (indiscernible). So the guideline document requests
24 documentation of those applications and how an
25 identification of how you're selective, restricted,
0084
1 and limited to your memberships. And so on
2 inspection I'm looking for proof of adhering to
3 these guidelines and looking for the written process
4 and seeing that as an example and the actual files
5 that are (indiscernible).
6 Q. Now let me stop you for just a moment and
7 ask you about an exhibit identified by the appellant
8 which I'm going to hand to you. This has been
9 marked Exhibit A-14.
10 A. Sure.
11 Q. So Ms. Kazi in her testimony described
12 this exhibit as being an application form that she
13 prepared and that she went over with you. So I
14 wanted us to have you explain whether you recall
15 seeing this document before and whether it is
16 sufficient, the document itself in your mind under
17 the guidelines.
18 And then third question --
19 (indiscernible), but third question is that in your
20 inspections did you see evidence that this
21 application form was being complied with?
22 A. I do have a slight recollection of this
23 form, but (indiscernible) there's a good chance that
24 I have it in my files (indiscernible). But I did
25 not see current lists of like this of every single
0085
1 member during my inspections. And again it kind of
2 goes back to her going from her Fivestar system to
3 whatever database she was migrating to as well as
4 the hard copy.
5 I know one time we sat down and went over
6 a few and that's probably what this document was.
7 I've looked, unfortunately had to look at multiple
8 different applications for many different
9 businesses, so if this is exactly what she was using
10 then probably guess it was. It looks like it does
11 check off a number of boxes as far as determining
12 membership and application process approvals.
13 So yeah, I mean (indiscernible).
14 Q. So again my final question was almost
15 setting aside what's on the application form, in
16 your inspections and your inspection records, did
17 you see evidence that was contrary to what the
18 application form --
19 A. Oh, yeah. Well, evidence as far as this
20 not being correct. So (indiscernible) request to
21 see accurate membership lists, this information
22 would be (indiscernible) and I believe that was
23 (indiscernible).
24 Q. So then there was additional testimony
25 from Ms. Kazi, so back to the guidelines. We were
0086
1 going over the membership criteria from selective,
2 restricted and limited, and Ms. Kazi testified that
3 from the business's perspective there's an effort to
4 meet the criteria for the 2,500 members cap. How
5 did these criteria work? Is it enough to meet one
6 of them or must a business meet all of them?
7 A. All of them, definitely. And again that's
8 something that when they have had (indiscernible)
9 that bring back, debrief on the inspection as a team
10 and go through a few of the points to whether or not
11 there's a violation (indiscernible). So yes, it
12 would definitely be all of them.
13 Q. And so tell me if you need a moment to
14 again review the inspection history that you just
15 went over before you answer this question. But the
16 question is in your inspection history for Kazi's in
17 Renton that spans from February of 2017 to April of
18 2018, is it a fair characterization to say that upon
19 each inspection Public Health concluded that the
20 business was either violating the public place
21 element or the place of employment element or both
22 as to indoor smoking ban?
23 A. I would say yes without looking over it.
24 It looks like the inspections were 2/23/17, 6/25/17
25 and (indiscernible) '17 as well as (indiscernible).
0087
1 So that's four different inspections and it looks
2 like in my notes all four of those there were
3 identifying factors that would put them in violation
4 of the RCW.
5 MS. CLARK: That was my final question.
6 Thank you.
7 HEARING EXAMINER: All right, I have a
8 couple questions and we'll let Ms. Kazi.
9 EXAMINATION
10 BY HEARING EXAMINER:
11 Q. How many notices of violation were issued
12 to Ms. Kazi then?
13 A. To my recollection it would have been at
14 minimum it would have been the four times.
15 Q. Four?
16 A. Yeah, we typically will put together a
17 notice of violation for every inspection.
18 Q. Okay.
19 A. And those don't get sent certified mail,
20 but they do typically get mailed to the --
21 Q. Okay. And they're all subject to
22 administrative appeal, correct?
23 A. Not the notice of violation, only the
24 notice of order.
25 Q. Oh, okay.
0088
1 A. Notice of order is the (indiscernible).
2 The notice of violation, the first one that the
3 business receives is essentially their warning as
4 Scott mentioned and it says fix these things.
5 Q. Right, okay. Okay, got it.
6 A. The second violation would then lead to
7 the notice of order. Any subsequent inspections we
8 would typically just order -- issue a notice of
9 violation while we're deciding how to
10 (indiscernible).
11 Q. So how many notice of orders were sent
12 out?
13 A. Just one notice of order.
14 Q. Okay. And that one was not appealed; is
15 that correct?
16 A. Right.
17 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, all right.
18 Great, thank you.
19 All right, Ms. Kazi, any questions?
20 MS. KAZI: Yes, please.
21 HEARING EXAMINER: Yeah, go ahead.
22 EXAMINATION
23 BY MS. KAZI:
24 Q. (Indiscernible) I don't want to, you know,
25 we obviously had a really good relation
0089
1 A. Sure.
2 Q. -- and we know each other for many years.
3 Don't get any hard feelings.
4 A. Not me.
5 Q. It's something I have to do. I wanted to
6 first find out (indiscernible) some of the portion
7 about right now just asked. The first inspection
8 was done, I believe it was in January and it was
9 educational?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. And then second one was (indiscernible).
12 A. It appears that way.
13 Q. Yes. And you weren't here (indiscernible)
14 some of the application form how it was created.
15 And I believe to show you somehow and I told -- I
16 remember I told you that this is what I created, do
17 you like it or not. You were really not sure about
18 it and you said you don't like it as much as -- do
19 you recall it that you telling me that you don't
20 like as much as the (indiscernible) forms
21 application?
22 A. I do recall having those conversations and
23 looking over some documents. And again because I
24 take all my information back to the office, I
25 typically don't give a determination of what I would
0090
1 determine as far as a violation or a violation. I
2 may have slipped and mentioned something during a
3 meeting like that.
4 But looking back at my notes it just
5 stated not providing accurate membership details to
6 demonstrate application of rule process membership.
7 So if I remember correct, there was a lack of detail
8 and accurate records. So there may have been 50
9 sheets of paper with names and dates on them, maybe
10 some missing signatures, But then when you look at
11 this stack of 50 there was potentially hundreds of
12 members.
13 So where are the records for those
14 hundreds of members is whether --
15 Q. I'm sorry. I didn't understand the last
16 part. Will you repeat?
17 A. Well, I didn't see an accurate membership
18 list of hundred percent (indiscernible).
19 Q. Okay, yes. So that was looking one month
20 since you gave me the paper, "Hey, follow these
21 rules," and inspect me within one month. And have
22 you recall that I asked you, "This is not enough
23 time for me to actually do this. All of a sudden,
24 (indiscernible) more time to work on this
25 application." Do you recall that?
0091
1 A. Sure.
2 Q. And I believe in when you came in
3 6/23/2017 and I (indiscernible), this is the day I
4 gave him the new application form, so I found it and
5 this is the date actually. I can see that he saw a
6 picture and I believe (indiscernible) that's when
7 you saw. I do have a portion about that. So you
8 saw Victor (indiscernible). You saw (indiscernible)
9 or something, I'm not sure which one. That was
10 somebody standing behind the counter, am I right?
11 A. Sure.
12 Q. And then I told him to either go from the
13 area or -- and then he approached you, you know,
14 (indiscernible) so he came up to you like, you know,
15 greet you or ask you a question. Do you recall
16 that?
17 A. (Inaudible).
18 Q. Okay. Was he there doing something
19 besides standing?
20 A. I can't recall the specific details of it
21 and I don't think my notes state that he was
22 actively. So those two individuals were in there,
23 but I don't think that is pertinent considering the
24 security guard was working inside.
25 Q. Yes. And okay, about the security, yes.
0092
1 You told me about the security or being inside, a
2 violation. And do you remember anytime that I went
3 in front of you and I told you I told the security
4 that -- the security was right there and I told him
5 in front of you, "The Health Department wants you to
6 be outside. He doesn't want you to be inside, can
7 you do that?" And he said, "Yeah, yeah, yeah."
8 That's what he said.
9 I'm not sure you can ever recall that
10 moment, but I actually told him (indiscernible).
11 A. True. You did instruct him and he said,
12 "Yeah." But if he was inside conducting work then
13 he was inside conducting work. That's just my
14 observations.
15 Q. You can do so much with the right peoples,
16 and people don't really listen because they think
17 you are very nice and they just kind of, you know,
18 do whatever they like.
19 A. Sure. But (indiscernible) I would imagine
20 that you're paying his work maybe he should be
21 listening to your instructions.
22 Q. Okay. Oh, yes, I have another question.
23 Okay, I believe you said something about security
24 work. So I remember in somewhere before, either
25 before (indiscernible), I believe somewhere in 2017
0093
1 you said you like the fact that I'm adding a
2 security at the door. It kind of secure the door
3 for (indiscernible) just anybody getting in, getting
4 inside. So because of the security being there he's
5 actually a security (indiscernible).
6 A. If he was outside not allowing me to enter
7 (indiscernible).
8 Q. Yes. And my question is he was, adding a
9 security you thought was a great idea.
10 A. It was step in the right direction at that
11 point, yeah.
12 Q. And okay, I have another question. I
13 believe you also told me I asked too many questions
14 about how I can improve the business structure. How
15 can I actually change the way that needs to be the
16 business in a way that's going to work with all the
17 rules and regulations. And not only me, I believe
18 (indiscernible) also asked you that question, same
19 thing.
20 What can we do to make some changes that
21 we can actually have (indiscernible) kind of problem
22 within (indiscernible) anything like that. So one
23 of the solution you gave me was to have customer
24 make their own hookahs (indiscernible). The other
25 was to make sure, you know, some kind of like a
0094
1 monthly payment system where they actually pay in
2 advance of just coming (indiscernible) hookah and
3 just smoke. And there's many other options that you
4 had, but you want to sit down and we can discuss
5 about this in the future.
6 A. Yeah, in those conversations I believe we
7 were just kind of one of those things, talking out
8 loud and exploring what options you may have. Again
9 I'm not a lawyer and it's not our role to be
10 business advisors. So if we were discussing that it
11 wasn't in a role where I was advising you, "This is
12 what you should be doing," but they were having
13 brainstorming options.
14 And just in the conversation you mentioned
15 when you first started questioning me, we have made
16 a little bit of a relationship. We have a friendly
17 back and forth. So in those conversations thinking
18 of, you know, thinking outside the box, exploring
19 what your options are may have come up in
20 conversation. Yeah.
21 Q. Okay. I think one of the portion -- have
22 you, I remember you saying you did not receive one
23 time of the membership which was in, I believe the
24 last inspection was in April, (indiscernible) when
25 (indiscernible) go and inspect it before we came
0095
1 (indiscernible) or if there was any problem and why
2 (indiscernible). But in that time I believe you
3 came into the lounge and you asked for the
4 membership paper and you were really extremely mad
5 at me for not having it and you waited for a long
6 time outside and you gave us 25 minutes
7 (indiscernible).
8 And when I got there you said, "I just got
9 my lunch from out here." And I came to you and you
10 said, "Can you give it to me?" And I was like, you
11 know, "We're just cleaning the lounge. At this
12 point I don't think I can give it to you but I can
13 email it to you the next day."
14 And you said, "Yes, that's fine, just go
15 ahead and do that. But you do need to have it in
16 the building." That's what you told me, which I had
17 no idea about. But I did apologize for not having
18 it at that point. But you, I also give you last
19 time an email. I believe it was in October 31st,
20 2017.
21 Do you recall that, receiving something
22 like the database or --
23 A. Yeah, there was a list of individuals. I
24 think they were just first names.
25 Q. Yeah, because I didn't want the customer
0096
1 last name in order to show because of private
2 privacy. The customer, you know, without their
3 permission just going ahead and (indiscernible).
4 A. Yeah, but a list like that wouldn't
5 fulfill our needs as far as having been shown proof
6 of application and approvals, so a list of names is
7 a list of names.
8 Q. Yes. So you do want to have the paperwork
9 in present when you come for inspection and
10 application form and total number of current members
11 (indiscernible); am I right?
12 A. Yes. And I want to go back to the last
13 April visit. I wasn't angry. I don't get angry in
14 this work. I've been doing it for over ten years.
15 All of my work is enforcement based, so it's not my
16 role to get angry with individuals, because if I
17 made it ugly it would unfortunately be ugly all the
18 time. So I try to make it as friendly as possible.
19 Q. So thank you. (Indiscernible) sometimes,
20 it's just me. But I do want to ask you one, another
21 question.
22 Oh yes. Do you remember on that day I
23 told you that -- you mentioned right now that I ask
24 -- I told you that I'm trying to change the old
25 system into the new system and I'm adding Fivestar.
0097
1 And you said, "Yeah, it's not great option, but it
2 might work."
3 So I was (indiscernible), I just wanted to
4 let you know. Because you keep asking me, "What is
5 the current number of current membership," and every
6 time I sent it to you, you have to kind of like do
7 it by yourself (indiscernible) and how many current
8 members, which is frustration. That's why I don't
9 want to giving it to you and I just wanted to show
10 you right there that this is the current number.
11 Would you agree with me that that's
12 something, you know, you're looking for or you
13 wanted me to do something, add something different?
14 Because I don't know exactly how --
15 A. Yeah, yeah. Definitely that was something
16 I was looking for. And then looking specifically at
17 the April inspection, I recall you looking directly
18 in my eye and saying, "Oh, I can't show you that
19 right now." So I mean there was nothing that was
20 given to me to verify any type of membership during
21 that inspection.
22 Q. But I show you Fivestar on that day?
23 A. (Indiscernible).
24 Q. I recall showing you Fivestars. It shows
25 319 on my phone.
0098
1 A. Was it in the April inspection?
2 Q. Yes.
3 A. Okay, if that's what you're saying then --
4 Q. But I recall showing you a list of
5 (indiscernible).
6 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: That was the time
7 your friends were over from (indiscernible).
8 BY MS. KAZI:
9 Q. I believe you have some concern about the
10 charcoal that as being CO2 exposure to the, you
11 know, for you as, you know, part-time. How can I
12 make this better for you for your next visit?
13 A. Yeah, we do have concerns and we are
14 collecting information for that. You know, that's
15 not prohibiting any (indiscernible).
16 MS. KAZI: And I believe during like -- I
17 believe that that's all the question I have. Thank
18 you.
19 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, thank you.
20 We are getting close to break, but Ms.
21 Clark did you have any redirect?
22 MS. CLARK: I do not.
23 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay. And was that
24 your final witness you said?
25 MS. CLARK: Yes.
0099
1 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, why don't we take
2 a ten-minute break at this point then?
3 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken.)
4 HEARING EXAMINER: -- presentation.
5 So okay, Ms. Kazi, now it's your turn to
6 present your side of the story. Go ahead.
7 MS. KAZI: Sure, thank you.
8 I would like to actually, I have to call
9 my witness, right?
10 HEARING EXAMINER: Certainly, yeah. And
11 of course you can be a witness yourself. You can --
12 yeah.
13 MS. KAZI: Thank you. I wanted to
14 actually first talk about my licensing.
15 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, sure.
16 MS. KAZI: Perfect. So this is, I would
17 like to instead of calling anyone, but if I have to
18 I'll confirm the accuracy that I can confirm it.
19 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, yeah. And of
20 course you're still under oath and I think you
21 understand that, right?
22 MS. KAZI: Yes, of course.
23 (Indiscernible).
24 Okay, I believe the license, I'm pretty
25 sure you have it in front of you and it shows that
0100
1 first I applied for this license in April 2015. And
2 it shows that I applied it and it shows the timing
3 (indiscernible).
4 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, which exhibit
5 number are you looking at?
6 MS. KAZI: Sorry, I don't have the exhibit
7 number, but I do have the application form that
8 looks like this.
9 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay.
10 MS. KAZI: (Indiscernible). And the
11 license number is BL030904.
12 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, go ahead.
13 MS. KAZI: Okay. That one I applied it
14 and when I received it I opened the business
15 (indiscernible) June 6th, 2015 with a state license
16 and city license. And I just wanted to mention on,
17 in August 10th I received a letter by -- and I
18 believe you have the exhibit, the letter. I'm not
19 sure what the exhibit number is, but it's received
20 in -- okay, so this was in October 8th, 2015, I
21 (indiscernible).
22 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay.
23 MS. KAZI: So we're talking about this
24 whole reason is the letter to the City and the City
25 response to my (indiscernible). So I received that
0101
1 from saying that (indiscernible) or somebody saying
2 that they had mistakenly given me this license and
3 it was not supposed to be issued to me. And this
4 was after being in business for -- so I received my
5 license in April -- May, June, July, August, so
6 after three or four months later, I believe, and I
7 received after awhile and it said it was given to me
8 by mistake.
9 So I asked why and I went to the City and
10 I asked them why, (indiscernible) mistake when she
11 would give somebody a license and they will purchase
12 anything they need to to start their business and
13 they're already struggling with their other
14 business. I had a restaurant during that time
15 (indiscernible) and I was very struggling.
16 So it was very much really bad situation where I'm
17 trying to make money as much as I can to afford be
18 in a business when that's just so much
19 (indiscernible). And I asked them why is that
20 decision was like that and the response was because
21 the City of Seattle mayor decided to shut down all
22 the hookah lounges in Seattle.
23 And I said, "Okay, what this is has
24 nothing to do with my business." I'm not in Seattle
25 and my name was not (indiscernible), eleven hookah
0102
1 lounges and I'm operating without having any
2 violations with, you know, crime or anything like
3 that and so why just like that. And they said,
4 "Because we are following the City of Seattle idea
5 of how, whatever decision they make." So I said,
6 "Okay, but I really need to, you know, I cannot do
7 this. You know, I really need you to let me do
8 this."
9 And so I believe somebody (indiscernible)
10 or someone told me, because usually I have -- I
11 speak with Mrs. Linda, (indiscernible), nobody else.
12 So I believe she told me, "Go ahead and
13 (indiscernible) with Donna Locher and she's in
14 Zoning Department. Speak with her, see what she
15 says. If she approves it then you are good to go."
16 And I said, Okay, no problem."
17 So I contacted Donna Locher and I
18 personally met with her, somewhere probably in
19 (indiscernible) -- okay, yes, I met with her maybe
20 in October or maybe in August. I'm not sure, but
21 somewhere in between in 2015 I met with her and
22 explained to her. And she said, "Go ahead and write
23 this letter." And this letter, I send it out to
24 Administration (indiscernible), I believe, and it
25 was October 8th, 2015, explaining to me that my
0103
1 operation of the hours and then I told him that what
2 hookah is, you know, (indiscernible) customer just,
3 you know, follow the lunch rule, that we would be
4 selling beverage, membership, hookah and
5 (indiscernible) collecting tobacco piece. You know,
6 I will be the one who's actually running the show.
7 And (indiscernible) I was inspected by the Renton
8 Fire Department and, you know, I had been inspected
9 by also Health Department previous and I know the
10 rules of the hookah regulation of the lounge, what
11 we need to do in order to be in business, basic
12 rules (indiscernible) memberships are collected. It
13 was never before (indiscernible) have to keep paper
14 (indiscernible).
15 So that's something they came up with
16 after they made the health official, health official
17 made their official agreement or settlement with the
18 11 hookah lounges, '15 or '16, somewhere around
19 there. I don't have the exact date, but they made
20 the settlement that they would have to be more
21 private and they have to follow the guidelines.
22 But before it was not like that. Before
23 we had a very simple way that you just collect
24 membership and you have -- when they come they can
25 see the names and the membership being collected
0104
1 that you have people just not walk in, but actually
2 paying for membership (indiscernible). And once a
3 year you pay for it for a whole year, so a person
4 can purchase a membership (indiscernible) full year.
5 Right now it's every quarter.
6 So, and you have to have a paper and
7 present application for which was not like that
8 before. So I'm very familiar with the whole process
9 and I did what is the old process. So I told him
10 that that's why I know, I know how to do this
11 business and please let me open the business and let
12 me be in business. I'm already open. Let me be in
13 the business because it's explained that I have
14 applied and received this license to operate the
15 business in June 1st which is probably April, not --
16 mistake who wrote it.
17 But I received this letter from you that
18 my licensing has been denied. It was inadvertently
19 like mistaken (indiscernible). So I said that I
20 spoke with Ms. Donna Locher and explained to her,
21 you know, this is what I need and I'm going through
22 a lot. And you know regardless what is the issue
23 with the City with Seattle, you know, at least give
24 me a chance. So after that it was fine. It was
25 everything was fine.
0105
1 So the time became the next
2 (indiscernible) 16 which is my (indiscernible) renew
3 my license. And I wanted to go renew my license and
4 I believe it was in April to review my license or
5 March, something around there, because it was not,
6 it was when you actually apply for a license and you
7 get it and then it's (indiscernible). It was like
8 that before. It's since changed. Anyway so I went
9 there and I went to renew my license.
10 And when I tried to renew my license, you
11 know, there was again another problem. So the
12 problem now raises whether or not hookah lounge is
13 allowed in (indiscernible) city or this or that
14 because there was another hookah lounge and there
15 was a lot of problem with the lounge over there.
16 (Indiscernible) I was told because the City can't
17 decide right now whether or not they can have a
18 lounge because the City of Seattle they're still
19 fighting on this matter and still going on with no
20 decision was made.
21 And because that no decision was made, I
22 would like -- we cannot just have you just use
23 whatever product you want. It has to be tobacco-
24 free. So I said okay, so because the City don't
25 allow in Seattle to have a hookah lounge, that is
0106
1 the only option I can be and remain in business,
2 have this kind of thing, right. So they said yes,
3 so that's why I gave out this paper.
4 But then the rule of the City mayor
5 decided that you cannot go against what is heritage,
6 what is where you're coming from. So Shisha is
7 traditionally made like that to have it. It's if
8 you talk about hookah this is what (indiscernible).
9 You cannot just smoke something else. You cannot --
10 just like the lawyer on the other side say, you
11 cannot tell a coffee shop to sell only tea but not
12 coffee, because their main point of their business
13 is coffee. So you cannot ask them to only sell tea.
14 So those kind of (indiscernible) was going on and
15 this definitely an attack on our culture and race
16 and everything else.
17 So the City of Seattle decided okay, we
18 will have (indiscernible). That's why they decided
19 to make the settlement and make sure this kind of
20 things doesn't happen ever again to be in the
21 business. So that's what had happened. And then I
22 went ahead, so when the next year came I went, 2017
23 I went and I got my new license.
24 Now this time, my license, I changed
25 everything. It was a different license. I got my
0107
1 tobacco license. I received from the State, from
2 the tobacco company, everything. So basically I
3 went from sole Kazi's Hookah Lounge to LLC to
4 tobacco license and everything that needed to be
5 done. And then I also go ahead in April
6 (indiscernible).
7 And I went and I (indiscernible) and this
8 time my new license is actually different. Right
9 now I don't have any more BL038904. There is no
10 more of that. I received BL041328 in March 2017.
11 So this was a new license from the City of Renton,
12 so want to explain the whole processing what I went
13 through with this frustration. At the same time I
14 was issued one license I was giving up license in
15 2015 (indiscernible). So I received my license in
16 2015 (indiscernible). Here it is, a copy of it, if
17 you don't have it. So issued it June 6th, 2016,
18 that's an expired by 2017 (indiscernible).
19 And so I would like to next talk about
20 (indiscernible) to Ms. Linda Welton, some of the
21 portion that she has (indiscernible) about
22 advertisement and reviews and other stuff. So I
23 read the law for the advertisement for tobacco,
24 tobacco law in United States (indiscernible). Okay,
25 so this says permitting the use or sell of tobacco
0108
1 product including advertisement of any
2 (indiscernible) other stuff.
3 So it has to basically what the law is
4 saying, let's say you have a belly dancer or a
5 picture or something and there's a tobacco product
6 name on there. So I believe that hookah is
7 instruments. When people look at hookah it could be
8 anything. It could be, you know, not tobacco
9 hookah. It could be tobacco. I'm pretty sure a
10 hookah is (indiscernible).
11 And the page that are on there, it's our
12 business page, it's not promoting on just anywhere.
13 So one person if you were to look for a hookah
14 lounge, okay, so the first thing you're going to do,
15 Yelp. Go to Yelp, type hookah lounge in area or
16 hookah lounge in (indiscernible). That's the way
17 you will see it, otherwise you cannot really see
18 where the hookah lounge is. If you're looking for a
19 specific thing then you can find it.
20 There's no advertising outside like a
21 logo, smoke, you know, on the building, smoke, or
22 like we sell marijuana, 21 and marijuana sign like
23 that. You don't (indiscernible). My sign, Kazi is
24 also my last name. It does not represent any kind
25 of tobacco or brand. Having a hookah in the
0109
1 background is not -- it's a culture. Everybody's
2 aware of it that in Middle East we smoke hookah and
3 there's belly dancer. It's been happening for
4 generations. This is just the culture.
5 So I would say that that's just how it is.
6 Just like you have the whiskey and a big cigar or
7 you can have a (indiscernible), this is something
8 that is just a culture. There's no tobacco was
9 advertised in any official media, any official
10 social places like Facebook. We don't mention about
11 we carry (indiscernible), we carry (indiscernible)
12 brand. We did not mention the brand of tobacco at
13 all. So it's not there.
14 And other thing is I wanted to mention
15 that tobacco product means any product that contain
16 tobacco. That's what it's saying. There was no
17 (indiscernible) anything kind of advertisement.
18 Things are only out for people to know what kind of
19 business are we, so if you're a hookah lounge and
20 they're looking for a hookah lounge, a person
21 looking for strictly a hookah lounge they can find
22 your hours. Okay, what time do you open, what time
23 you close, so they can make their (indiscernible) so
24 they can go there.
25 What kind of atmosphere is that because
0110
1 some people like crazy, you know, crazy place, some
2 people like very relaxing place. Everybody has
3 their own way. What kind of music style do you
4 like? We play very low music, very low, like you
5 can't even hear it. You can have -- you can do your
6 homework, laptop work, office work, Microsoft work.
7 You can make advertisement, whatever you need to do
8 in that place. You have people from Shark Tank come
9 there, the Microsoft people, a lot of business owner
10 comes there.
11 We have pilots (indiscernible) comes there
12 after getting off from their flight. So we have a
13 bunch of different kind of people that comes there.
14 We have almost (indiscernible) mayor of Bellevue.
15 He was also nominated. He comes there. He's always
16 frustrated the fact that he has to drive so much
17 from Redmond to Renton. And all these people are
18 coming, they're complaining, "Hey, Shadika, why
19 don't you open in Redmond when you're ready."
20 I mean we're really always struggling with
21 one lounge and they want us to be more closer to
22 them. And this is something they're always, you
23 know, they have to wait in (indiscernible) traffic
24 but they come and they complain. But it's okay.
25 They've been coming for a half a year, this is --
0111
1 they don't want to go anywhere else. This is what
2 they like.
3 And we don't do sampling. I think the law
4 mentioned about sampling. It doesn't have any smoke
5 sign around it. There's, if the billboard says
6 hookah (indiscernible) it does not say about the
7 brand, I believe, because brand would be a tobacco
8 brand, (indiscernible) or something familiar with
9 that.
10 These are the people get impacted from not
11 having hookah lounges. Many people fought for it.
12 Especially I've been a hookah smoker for the last
13 ten years. (Indiscernible). This is something hard
14 for me (indiscernible).
15 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay. And since we
16 just have a tape recording, this isn't video tape,
17 just want to point out you were showing a photograph
18 of a crowd of people. That's not in your exhibits,
19 right. I didn't see that in the exhibits.
20 MS. KAZI: This was in 2015.
21 HEARING EXAMINER: Yeah, a picture of --
22 that's of your patrons, people who go to -- your
23 members that go to your hookah lounge; is that
24 right?
25 MS. KAZI: No, no, no.
0112
1 HEARING EXAMINER: Oh, I'm sorry.
2 MS. KAZI: No, I just wanted to show how
3 many people were affected. They fought for the
4 rights of for the hookah lounge (indiscernible).
5 HEARING EXAMINER: Oh, I see, other hookah
6 lounge owners and -- okay, got it. Got it.
7 MS. KAZI: In City Hall, yes.
8 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay.
9 MS. KAZI: And I wanted to also talk about
10 a lot of other stuff. Okay, so that was that. We
11 covered that, the (indiscernible) areas and stuff.
12 I think there was some portion about
13 whether or not police were there and comments that
14 we're staffed and friendly staff like that. So I
15 have -- I don't have employees like that but I have
16 friends who are always there so they make their own
17 hookah. They're walking around and they go inside,
18 outside, they're playing games. They're
19 (indiscernible). They don't tell me
20 (indiscernible). They're doing themselves because
21 this is (indiscernible), you know, they make their
22 own hookah.
23 Just like customer, you know, we discussed
24 about customer can go ahead and make their own
25 hookah so then that's fine. Whoever doesn't want to
0113
1 make their hookah and, you know, I make it. So what
2 I'm saying everybody can, you know, be inside and
3 outside. You know, every time a lot of people are
4 inside in the back, the other time a lot of people
5 are in the living area.
6 I'm sorry. I have -- so things like that
7 happens. So a lot of our customer might think, you
8 know, they work there but it's not true. It's not
9 they're working there, but, you know, like
10 (indiscernible) people like to say stuff, you know,
11 friend stuff. It could just be one person, but they
12 want to refer it as (indiscernible). That's how it
13 is. You cannot just go on what people say with
14 their word, you know, it's just everybody can,
15 anyone can say anything.
16 That's what I'm saying. (Indiscernible)
17 everybody's nice or not nice, like security
18 (indiscernible), we make sure security knows who
19 should be coming in the lounge and who shouldn't be.
20 And our opinion is very (indiscernible). It's very
21 important that security knows what's going on
22 because if the security doesn't know what's going
23 on, then we all could be in trouble. Security
24 should know what's going on outside of the lounge.
25 Who is driving by, who is hanging out unless they're
0114
1 talking for more than ten minutes.
2 Because I was told by some, a
3 (indiscernible) crime prevention for Renton City,
4 she was, she told me that, you know, you have
5 security, tell him to always pay attention, walk
6 around the lot, make sure everything is fine, watch
7 everybody. After she told me that I make sure I
8 always keep in touch with her. So I always been
9 going back and forth with her to make sure if I see
10 something I expect it, I report to, "Hey, you know,
11 I seen this person was keep looking through my
12 window. I'm not sure who this is, could you please
13 have somebody supervision business for awhile until
14 this matter's solved."
15 And I have those emails too that I
16 actually contacted her making sure that she knows
17 that, you know, everything is fine. She's always
18 been generous about it that how I am actually honest
19 on top of everything. But it only happened one
20 time. I only ask one year. I only contacted her
21 one time about this person that I thought was just
22 driving by looking at my business.
23 So the security told me this is what's
24 happening. I looked it up, this is what's
25 happening. We called her right away. So other than
0115
1 that last from one year, we only make four calls to
2 9-1-1. First one, there was a homeless person who
3 actually enter, try to get inside the building. And
4 we told him we're closed and he wouldn't leave, so
5 he climbed up (indiscernible) and he tried to get
6 inside so we called the 9-1-1. And police came and
7 they called the Fire Department and they came out,
8 and police were very laughing and happy about that.
9 So yeah, anyways, and the other two times
10 was a drunk person came to the lounge and we told
11 him we don't expect anybody who's drunk come into
12 the lounge. If you're drunk you need to leave. And
13 both of those times there was people who didn't
14 wanted to leave so we had to call the police. And
15 the other time there was four people in the parking
16 lot fighting for two minutes. We called the police,
17 but before that they already left which is couple
18 minutes. Other than that we don't make any call.
19 Even before that, even before that year we
20 make lots of calls to 9-1-1 and there was a reason
21 for it we called so many times. Every time I tell
22 people don't be outside and they're outside, I call
23 the 9-1-1. If I'm telling you to leave the property
24 and you're not doing it, I'll call the police. That
25 was my thing. So I called many times to make sure
0116
1 my parking lot is clear out and people are always
2 sitting.
3 There are people that I don't know. There
4 are people that come into the lounge, but there are
5 people that I don't know (indiscernible). So I make
6 sure I call (indiscernible) this time I can to have
7 these people don't do this. I show them, "Hey, this
8 is not something you can do over here." Maybe some
9 other people would be okay with it, but not me. So
10 that's how it is with me.
11 And I take very serious about things. And
12 right now, you go in my parking lot there's not even
13 a mosquito would be walking by because it's clean
14 and clear. So that's how we make sure of the -- we
15 take notes, tell them anything from the City and we
16 try to improve as much as we can. Sometimes it
17 takes a long time, the most important things
18 mandatory to us than the least important things.
19 I understand, you know, there was letter
20 came to my house, keep paying for sign, you know,
21 for paying for the outside sign and I was not doing
22 it. The reason I was not doing it because I was so
23 busy with so many other things that I couldn't get
24 to it. You know, every time -- yes, I would. I
25 wanted to take it out, take out the sign from
0117
1 (indiscernible), previous business of mine, but
2 there's no time. And I paid $900 in 2016 because of
3 those signs. And this is something that, you know,
4 you learn from your mistake and happened. So
5 eventually I do get out (indiscernible).
6 Then I wanted to talk to you, everybody --
7 I'm sorry. I want to talk about, still, about
8 employee things, about some other laws in Washington
9 State is talking about vapor law, how vapor lounge
10 and vapor (indiscernible) has increased. If we go
11 to vapor establishments it's the future of vapor.
12 There's lots of employees and the law passed on it
13 that you can actually smoke vapor in front of a
14 customer including his smoke inhale, while they're
15 still selling vapor.
16 So vapor is like (indiscernible) that is
17 new. It's smoking. It's a cigarette. You can put
18 nicotine. You can put whatever (indiscernible) as
19 you want or random person goes to that shop and you
20 don't just purchase the vapor, you can actually
21 smoke while you're there and there's employees
22 working there. And there's a lounge also so you can
23 try a flavor, and employees probably smoking 16
24 nicotine, 16 percent of nicotine, 40 percent of
25 nicotine or who knows how much percentage. So
0118
1 that's something is okay with the law that you can
2 actually (indiscernible) and the customer and the
3 employees can vapor in front of each other. So
4 that's fine with the law.
5 And I wanted to mention something about
6 how, why is the law so strict -- the law is so
7 strict with the hookah lounge in Washington State,
8 however, the City is because of the crime and the
9 violation and what happens. The thing is, last one
10 year there was only four incident. There was three
11 doesn't even count with me because (indiscernible).
12 We have (indiscernible) them out where they used to
13 give you service, and the other person was homeless
14 guy who wouldn't be a potential threat for us.
15 So this whole time and, you know, as much
16 as that's what I know. But, you know, obviously we
17 can, nothing major happened that we can actually,
18 you know, think, okay, this is so dangerous
19 business. Nothing like that happened. The thing
20 is, the dangers it becomes what kind of people
21 comes. People can die anywhere. They can die in a
22 school. They can die in a gas station. They can
23 die from their house. If somebody's targeted it
24 doesn't matter where they're at, they will die.
25 (Indiscernible)
0119
1 So that's covered, the complaints, the
2 vapor law how the United States is allowing the
3 vapor and there's no decision on hookah lounges from
4 the State or from the City. I wanted to talk about
5 other state law with the hookah lounges. There are
6 many different states hookah lounges are respected,
7 actually, and here's the law from the other states.
8 HEARING EXAMINER: Ms. Kazi, just so you
9 understand, I have to follow Washington law. I
10 don't have any authority to say --
11 MS. KAZI: Okay.
12 HEARING EXAMINER: -- that Washington law
13 is unfair and can't apply it. Yeah, that's the
14 difference between me and judges. I have no
15 authority to invalidate city ordinances or state
16 law. If you were to appeal my decision to a court
17 they could say it, you know, unfairly discriminates
18 against your customs and heritage and that kind of
19 thing.
20 But that's -- I just have to follow the
21 letter of the law unfortunately, so. Yeah, just
22 keep that in mind in your arguments.
23 MS. KAZI: Okay. Okay, I'm sorry.
24 HEARING EXAMINER: Oh no, that's fine.
25 MS. KAZI: The other thing I wanted to
0120
1 talk about already mentioned that many people
2 (indiscernible) city and the state to hookah
3 lounges, the lounge from different city. So
4 definitely is beneficial for the Renton city, I
5 believe, because these customers, clients they stop
6 at the gas station or they stop in a Coke place or
7 to get gas or do some shopping. So many people are
8 coming to Renton city also could, you know, want to
9 point out that also benefiting the city or local
10 businesses. That's what I believe. So that's that.
11 And okay, I believe there was concern
12 about my sister being there, (indiscernible). She's
13 right here and behind me and she actually works for
14 (indiscernible)?
15 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yeah.
16 MS. KAZI: TSI. And she has a baby. He's
17 3 years old. She comes smoke with us sometimes at
18 the lounge. She's not a very (indiscernible)
19 person, back in the days, yes. But she comes
20 sometimes, smoke (indiscernible, and she take care
21 of her son. I think that's what she does. You
22 know, she was there while he was there, and while I
23 was talking to him she saw the customer needed help
24 and she thought she would just go and help him out.
25 And that's what she did and because still a family
0121
1 business no matter what, so (indiscernible).
2 So I think, I believe I am, you know,
3 doing as much as I can to, you know, comply with
4 everything. Obviously if I have some things I need
5 to improve on I will (indiscernible) that. Concern
6 from the, you know, through friends and everything,
7 those kinds of things. But I believe like I'm doing
8 as much as I can but obviously everybody makes
9 mistakes in some way or another.
10 The other thing I wanted to talk about --
11 so yeah, I think that's pretty much what I wanted to
12 talk about. Yeah, so.
13 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay. Ms. Clark, did
14 you have any questions of Ms. Kazi?
15 MS. CLARK: I just had one question.
16 EXAMINATION
17 BY MS. CLARK:
18 Q. When you described the process in 2015 how
19 you first received the business license and received
20 a notice that it had been issued in mistake, at any
21 time did the City ever force the business to close
22 down?
23 A. No, because we -- no, we didn't.
24 MS. CLARK: Okay, thank you. That was my
25 question.
0122
1 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, I just had a few
2 myself.
3 EXAMINATION
4 BY HEARING EXAMINER:
5 Q. So currently how many people are paid to
6 help operate your business when people are there
7 smoking the hookah? I mean there's security guards,
8 is there anyone else that's paid to serve drinks or
9 do anything else at the business?
10 A. So it's me, Victor, the security.
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. That's pretty much it.
13 Q. And is the security person, did you make
14 the security person a partner, did you say, or is
15 that just Victor?
16 A. No, he's not a partner yet.
17 Q. Okay, all right. You say yet, are you
18 going to make him a partner?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Okay, all right. And then your partner,
21 is he like -- does he get like a percentage of the
22 revenues or how do you pay your partner?
23 A. He does get a percentage from the
24 business.
25 Q. Okay. And could you fire him if you
0123
1 wanted to or?
2 A. No. I would never fire him. Either it's
3 determined between me and (indiscernible) some
4 other, you know, way that he could (indiscernible).
5 Q. Okay.
6 A. So it's something between me and him that
7 we actually talk about it to make sure everything's
8 fine.
9 Q. Okay. So the only people that are
10 essentially running the lounge then is you, Victor
11 and the security people. There's no one else that's
12 paid to take care of it? I take it you must have
13 like maid service that comes in at night or
14 something?
15 A. Yes. I do have sometimes work at cleaning
16 the lounge, I'll hire somebody to clean
17 (indiscernible), you know, I'll contractor it out.
18 Sometimes something break down, like you have your
19 carpet needs to be cleaned out, so all the carpeting
20 (indiscernible), the whole carpet. Or sometimes you
21 will need to clean the outside and you call
22 (indiscernible).
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. So (indiscernible) disgusting and you have
25 those kinds of things taken care of that
0124
1 (indiscernible).
2 Q. And so there's a kitchen. I mean what do
3 you serve, is it just beverages or what else?
4 A. So what I mean is like my kitchen,
5 regardless of anything else we have a big kitchen.
6 So sometimes I have to get Saturdays because I have
7 two hood, right, so the Fire Department wants me to
8 service (indiscernible) or the exhaust system.
9 Q. Oh, hoods. Okay.
10 A. They want to get all the -- yeah,
11 regardless you take it out or away or you service
12 them. So those people, the service company come and
13 do it and make sure the exhaust fan is working
14 properly, is cleaning, (indiscernible) make sure
15 they --
16 Q. Okay. So in terms of food and beverages,
17 you're just serving beverages not food; is that
18 correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay.
21 A. But I do want to eventually -- the Health
22 Department is, you know, is allow food, because I
23 heard from the Liquor Department told me that you
24 can serve alcohol (indiscernible).
25 Q. Okay. So who serves the drinks then? Who
0125
1 makes and serves the drinks? Is that you and
2 Victor?
3 A. We have canned soda, so --
4 Q. Pardon?
5 A. Everything has can involved.
6 Q. Oh, so people just take it themselves or
7 you get it for them, okay.
8 Now, and just so I understand the
9 membership process correctly, so if someone wants to
10 be -- someone can't go in your lounge unless they're
11 a member. And if they want to be a member they have
12 to fill out a form and then they have to wait 24
13 hours and then they become a member, right? And the
14 sole criteria is just that they're the right age, is
15 that right?
16 A. So this is something that the Health
17 Department came to see me when he said you have to
18 wait 24 hours to go through this whole process and
19 everything. That's not something that the State
20 require, from the State of Washington, That's
21 something the settlement between the 11 hookah
22 lounges in Seattle (indiscernible) that you have to
23 wait for 24 hours.
24 I'm sure (indiscernible) people are not
25 liking it, something that have to follow. The
0126
1 reason is first you're taking individual right to
2 smoke. If I want to smoke now I come from
3 (indiscernible).
4 Q. No, I just want to find out what your
5 process, it's not why you're doing it. But so if
6 someone who wants to be a member in your lounge they
7 can only get inside if you accept them as a member,
8 and to become a member they have to fill out a form
9 and wait 24 hours, and basically if they're over 18
10 they can --
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. -- they're made a member.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. That's what it boils down to, okay.
15 A. You can have those (indiscernible) the
16 lounge as well.
17 Q. Okay, okay.
18 A. You have to have 18 no matter what.
19 That's Washington State law, you have to show ID.
20 Q. Okay, all right. And so in terms of the
21 people that are paid to work at your business, right
22 now it's just security guards, you and Victor. Were
23 you paying anyone else before? I mean is this
24 something recent that these are the only paid people
25 for your business or is that been how your business
0127
1 has been operated for the last few years?
2 A. Yeah. So I used to pay myself before
3 because I used to do all the work before
4 (indiscernible).
5 Q. Oh, okay. So since 2015, '16, the only
6 people paid have been you, Victor and the security
7 guard; is that right?
8 A. Victor just came recently.
9 Q. Oh, okay.
10 A. Before it was just me when we used to work
11 from 11 or 10 o'clock in the morning to until 1
12 o'clock at night.
13 Q. I see. I see.
14 A. Sometimes try to call (indiscernible).
15 Q. Okay. And so what do you -- do people, I
16 guess what do people pay for when they go to your
17 lounge? Do they pay for, you know, for like for the
18 hour of smoking or for the tobacco products you give
19 them or how does that work?
20 A. No, it's not by hours because hours is
21 limited, like you don't charge by hours.
22 (Indiscernible) hookah which is 15 to $40 --
23 Q. I see.
24 A. -- you know, if they don't have membership
25 they pay for that and stuff like that. They get
0128
1 refills, you know, and some people smoke by
2 themselves or various like don't like to share with
3 somebody. Some people they like to share with
4 another person. Some people should share with --
5 Q. I see.
6 A. -- (indiscernible) person. So it really
7 depends on what they want to do. We have a rule you
8 cannot have more than three people at same hookah
9 because then we don't make money. So people, you
10 know, people are there. People are there from
11 early, from 4 o'clock until 9 o'clock, 10 o'clock
12 sometimes, doing their job, work, you know --
13 Q. Right.
14 A. -- on paper.
15 Q. Okay.
16 A. Or some people just like to be, this is
17 their second home.
18 Q. I see.
19 A. Instead of being in the house.
20 Q. Yeah.
21 A. So they, you know, this is, that's what
22 they do.
23 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, understood.
24 Ms. Clark, did you have any questions in
25 light of my questions or --
0129
1 EXAMINATION
2 BY MS. CLARK:
3 Q. It sounds like so when someone comes to
4 the door and they don't have a membership what
5 happens?
6 A. So we ask them to make a membership
7 (indiscernible).
8 Q. And then what happens from there?
9 A. So they fill out the application and then
10 so we give them (indiscernible) 24 hours unless you
11 have (indiscernible), somebody (indiscernible) part
12 of the lounge or you've been to another lounge, you
13 have to (indiscernible). (Indiscernible) we have to
14 like, sorry, you know. And they get offensive, some
15 people get offensive, some people just let it go.
16 And people, we show them the
17 (indiscernible) and make them understand
18 (indiscernible). You can see a lot of the comments
19 in Yelp and Facebook that says (indiscernible) they
20 charge membership $5. This is something
21 (indiscernible).
22 MS. CLARK: Okay.
23 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay. Did you have any
24 other witnesses, Ms. Kazi, other than yourself?
25 MS. KAZI: I have some videos, talks about
0130
1 some, you know, it kind of shows what people
2 (indiscernible) and talk about their experience and
3 how much they appreciate it, if that's okay to show.
4 HEARING EXAMINER: How long would they,
5 how long are the videos?
6 MS. KAZI: A couple minutes probably,
7 three or four minutes.
8 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay. And did you
9 submit them in advance to the City Attorney? Okay,
10 all right. We'll go ahead and show it.
11 I think we'll have to make those exhibits
12 then. Let's see, I think, let's see A-17 or, excuse
13 me, A-18 will be the videos.
14 (WHEREUPON, videos were marked as Exhibit
15 A-18 (sic) for identification.)
16 HEARING EXAMINER: And any objections, Ms.
17 Clark, or?
18 MS. CLARK: I don't know if I have an
19 objection.
20 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, see it first?
21 MS. CLARK: I don't --
22 HEARING EXAMINER: Yeah, I --
23 MS. CLARK: -- (indiscernible) found on
24 that. So on the date that exhibits were due I
25 received a series of 23 emails, some attaching one
0131
1 file, some attaching multiple files. If I printed
2 them all I believe it would have exceeded 1,000
3 pages. None of it was numbered, none of it was
4 labeled. I don't recall having two videos, and I so
5 I don't know if I object to these videos, and I may.
6 So I reserve the right to object and I
7 don't yet agree to admit them.
8 MS. KAZI: Okay, I actually listed those
9 videos (indiscernible).
10 HEARING EXAMINER: In any one of your
11 emails to Ms. Clark; is that right? Okay.
12 MS. CLARK: I believe that I understand.
13 And so there were witnesses who were listed as
14 possibly testifying by video, yes.
15 HEARING EXAMINER: Oh.
16 MS. CLARK: Definitely received the
17 disclosure of witnesses. However, now I'm more
18 confident that I did not receive actual videos.
19 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, oh. Hm.
20 MS. KAZI: So I'm not sure if necessary
21 just the video is to send it out or should I, you
22 know, I should show the video, but any
23 (indiscernible) videos would be a testimony
24 (indiscernible).
25 MS. CLARK: As long as I have the
0132
1 opportunity to object after seeing the video, I'm
2 fine with it (indiscernible).
3 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, yeah, because the
4 other way is that she can send the videos to you and
5 then you can review it. And then if you're okay
6 with it then I can review it afterwards. We can
7 just wrap that up through email after today.
8 MS. CLARK: I'm perfectly comfortable,
9 again if I can object after.
10 HEARING EXAMINER: Yeah, yeah. Why don't
11 we, just because we're closing in on the 5 o'clock
12 hour, why don't we say -- Ms. Kazi, if you could
13 send those videos to Ms. Clark and we'll see if Ms.
14 Clark has any objections. And if it's all hunky-
15 dory and there are no objections or if I overrule
16 her objections, then I'll look at the videos myself
17 afterwards then. How's that?
18 MS. KAZI: (Indiscernible).
19 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, all right. We'll
20 do it that way. Just anything else you want to
21 present?
22 Ms. Kazi, any --
23 MS. KAZI: Oh. No, I believe I
24 (indiscernible).
25 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, all right. Yeah,
0133
1 so when we get to the end of the hearing today,
2 remind me. We'll set up deadlines for you to send
3 the videos to Ms. Clark and see if Ms. Clark has any
4 objections. She can view them and then afterwards
5 I'll probably view them.
6 So, all right, let's see. And you said
7 you didn't -- no other witnesses then, so other than
8 your video ones?
9 MS. KAZI: I don't have any witnesses, but
10 I do want to mention that this is very important for
11 our culture and very important for our people, very
12 important for this whole (indiscernible). It's very
13 important in their life the hookah, what it means to
14 them and they appreciate the business. They
15 appreciate that we are there for them.
16 They appreciate that they come and have a
17 great hookah experience (indiscernible) having a bad
18 hookah experience somewhere else. And not only that
19 they appreciate, the customer appreciate that our
20 lounge is very nice and relaxing. Some of those
21 lounges where if they have to go through many
22 problems, there are, you know, as we can see many
23 hookah lounges they don't know how to control their
24 business where they have to check people to let them
25 in. This kind of thing, other hookah lounges just
0134
1 cannot maintain it.
2 And I believe I am doing as much as to
3 make sure that we really find out, keep an eye on
4 customers (indiscernible), find out customers'
5 action and interest in customer. And if it doesn't
6 work out we tell them it's not the place for them.
7 So this is what we've been doing and I think, you
8 know, any business if you don't know how to control
9 your business obviously you're not meant for it.
10 So, and those customers they appreciate it a lot.
11 This is very important that they come from work,
12 they leave from their work, at 2 o'clock they come
13 to come and smoke hookah and enjoy, get out their
14 laptop. I have some pictures. They're always
15 working and they show everything is fine. And this
16 is to them very appreciation.
17 That's as much as I can tell you. It's
18 appreciation for me also because I can meet with
19 many different culture people. I can meet with
20 people who are older than me, younger than me, who
21 are in the mid-age. I mean everybody. And we talk
22 about lives and we talk about what's politics. We
23 talk about everything in life general.
24 And, you know, everybody talk about what
25 they're going through or how happy they are or is
0135
1 it's a (indiscernible) gathering place and it's very
2 important because you don't get to see this
3 anywhere. And you can have a little wine bar and
4 have a wine and eventually you'll get drunk and get
5 into car. And see, it's not same thing with hookah,
6 it doesn't make you drunk. You aren't drunk.
7 You're not in stable mind and you cannot
8 do your business work when you (indiscernible).
9 It's definitely something, regardless you can take
10 it or do it here or are they going to do it at their
11 house. If they do it at the house they're exposing
12 it to secondhand smoke for sure because the
13 atmosphere they are in, their wife maybe not liking
14 it or the kids they're surrounded by and they're
15 exposed to that.
16 You know, when I was little, when my dad
17 was had smoked he used to smoke cigarette six times
18 a day. And eventually when I was 7 or 8 I stole a
19 cigarette from him (indiscernible). Yes, and I did
20 that because I wanted to know why he smoking certain
21 thing, and after that I didn't because I didn't like
22 it.
23 But my point is, regardless if you, you
24 rather do something like this, smoking in a place
25 where you don't show it to minors, your business is
0136
1 not showing it to minors. Minors are not seeing it
2 in the school or inside the house or in an event.
3 You're doing it at closed place where nobody knows
4 what is your mom doing or what is your dad doing or
5 what is your cousins doing, you know, they do it,
6 that's it.
7 You know, regardless (indiscernible) you
8 want to find out later that you want to find out
9 now. So that's what I wanted to say.
10 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, thank you. Thank
11 you.
12 All right, Ms. Clark. You get to rebuttal
13 there, any rebuttal evidence? And we have separate
14 closings, don't forget.
15 MS. CLARK: Yeah. We don't have, the City
16 does not have any rebuttal.
17 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, all right. Okay.
18 And Ms. Kazi, I didn't stop you. It
19 sounds like you just made your closing comments and
20 that's fine. I didn't want to interrupt you. But
21 we did have a separate closing argument and now you
22 get a closing argument. It sounds like you just
23 made it though.
24 Was there anything you wanted to add to
25 your closing comments? It was well said what you
0137
1 said.
2 MS. KAZI: Thank you.
3 HEARING EXAMINER: So okay, you covered
4 it, all right.
5 So, Ms. Clark, you get the final closing
6 argument then.
7 MS. CLARK: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Hearing
8 Examiner.
9 So let me begin by the code basis for the
10 City's denial of the business license renewal and
11 then also the order to close the business. So the
12 code basis in the Renton Municipal Code is 5-5-3
13 subsection G7. And there the code provides that the
14 administrator, and in this case the administrator is
15 designee, Ms. Weldon, may serve a notice ordering a
16 business to close and to discontinue operation if a
17 business operates without a valid business license
18 or violates any provision later in the section of
19 the code.
20 So moving later in the section, 5-5-3
21 subsection G5,5 provides that a business license may
22 be revoked or refused to be denied or is otherwise
23 in violation when it violates federal, state or
24 municipal law or violates any health regulation.
25 So, here, the City in large part is referring to the
0138
1 findings of King County Public Health that this
2 business is in violation of state, local law and
3 health regulations.
4 So although during the course of the
5 hearing there was significant testimony about
6 whether there was (indiscernible) a disparate impact
7 on a different cultural group, the City's basis for
8 ordering the business to close and for denying the
9 renewal is 100 percent based on the state law on the
10 indoor smoking ban, and then King County Public
11 Health's interpretation of that law through both
12 King County Public Health Board or Health code, and
13 in addition the health regulations that King County
14 has enacted.
15 So the City's basis for denying the
16 business license renewal and ordering the business
17 to close have nothing to do with cultural
18 considerations or a disparate impact among any
19 particular groups within the city of Renton or
20 elsewhere. It is 100 percent based on the indoor
21 smoking ban at the state, local and county levels.
22 So the indoor smoking ban originated, as
23 the Hearing Examiner likely knows, through an
24 initiative passed by the voters of Washington. It
25 was Initiative 901 that was passed in November of
0139
1 2005. And so looking at the initiative that was
2 passed, it was the voice of the people, voters of
3 Washington who chose to, in fact, impose upon the
4 people a limitation of freedoms, so the limitation,
5 clearly, from choosing to smoke in indoor places if
6 they were either places of employment or public
7 places.
8 There is little case law of the validity
9 of the initiative which was codified at RCW Chapter
10 70.160. However, there has been a constitutional
11 challenge to the initiative and the Supreme Court
12 did uphold the constitutional challenges. So that
13 case is American Legion Post v. Department of
14 Health, and the cite to that decision is 164 Wash.2d
15 570. It's a 2008 decision.
16 And in that case the Supreme Court looked
17 at challenges based on due process claims, people
18 protection claims and void for vagueness claims and
19 upheld the initiative on all respect. Furthermore,
20 the court in that case went on to find that smoking
21 is not a fundamental right and that's at 600. So
22 the indoor smoking ban, so the codification of the
23 initiative provides at 70, sorry, RCW 70.160.050
24 that owners shall prohibit smoking in public places
25 and places of employment, so that the statute itself
0140
1 gives us the three issues that are present in this
2 appeal hearing. Those three issues are whether
3 smoking was an issue, whether Kazi's is a public
4 place, and finally whether Kazi's is a place of
5 employment.
6 As I mentioned, there are county and
7 health regulations that implement the indoor smoking
8 ban. At the county level it is Board of Health
9 Chapter 19.03, and the Hearing Examiner will find
10 that those provisions mirror the language of the
11 state law. They have definitions for smoking, place
12 of employment and public place that all mirror the
13 language of the state law.
14 So, turning to those three issues, first,
15 whether smoking was present in the Kazi's business,
16 so at RCW 70.160.020, which is the definition
17 section for the indoor smoking ban and there is an
18 identical definition in the King County Board of
19 Health regulations, smoke or smoking means the
20 carrying or smoking of any kind of lighted pipe,
21 cigar, cigarette or any other lighted smoke
22 equipment.
23 And so, here, the findings of the Public
24 Health Inspector, Mr. Pajimula, and Ms. Kazi's own
25 testimony, leave no doubt that there is lit charcoal
0141
1 that is at least an element of the business. So
2 that's the first element is met there is smoking
3 involved.
4 The next question is whether Kazi's is a
5 public place under the statute, and same RCW
6 definition provision 70.160.020. And a public place
7 means, and I'm reading in part, that portion of any
8 building used by and open to the public. That can
9 expressly include under the statutory definition
10 restaurants, bars and taverns.
11 So then before I discuss the guidelines,
12 that Public Health promulgated further defining what
13 it means to be a public place versus a private
14 place, there is a Washington State Supreme Court
15 case that looks at the question of whether a club
16 was a private club or open to the public. So the
17 context was a bit different there, it was in the
18 case of a discrimination issue. I believe it was an
19 Eagle's club that was at issue. And so there the
20 exclusion of women from membership could be upheld
21 if the place was considered to be a private
22 association.
23 So the Supreme Court in the Tenino Aerie
24 v. Grand Aerie case-- and the cite to that is 148
25 Wash.2d 224 and that's a 2002 case -- the Washington
0142
1 Supreme Court in establishing criteria for how to
2 distinguish between a place as being private or
3 public leaned heavily upon a U.S. Supreme Court, the
4 Roberts decision in that case.
5 And so our Supreme Court came up with a
6 list of inquiries that a court should ask itself in
7 determining whether a place is public or private, so
8 that query involves the following: An organization's
9 size, purpose, policies, selectivity, public
10 services offered, practices and other
11 characteristics pertinent to a particular case.
12 However, it then continues: Emphasis should be
13 placed on whether the organization is a business of
14 a commercial enterprise as opposed to nonprofit, and
15 whether its membership policies are so unselective
16 and unrestricted that the organization can fairly be
17 said to offer its services to the public.
18 Here, the Public Health guidelines that
19 are Exhibit COR-11 are consistent with our
20 Washington Supreme Court's direction in the Tenino
21 Aerie case in that the public place criteria that
22 have been adopted by Public Health regulations
23 require that in order to b a non-public place and a
24 truly private organization, there must be
25 selectivity, restrictiveness and limited numbers.
0143
1 So, here, the City, although it sounds
2 like there was a child under the age of 3 at least
3 once in the operation, it does sound like the
4 testimony indicates that the restrictive criterion
5 is met in that numbers are restricted to those of
6 smoking age. In addition, there was testimony at
7 least as to an effort on the owner's part to meet
8 the limited criteria in that there is an effort to
9 cap the number of members to 2,500 as provided in
10 the guidelines. However, there is no evidence to
11 prove the selective criteria that the guidelines
12 present, and that as read in the Supreme Court case,
13 our Supreme Court has determined to actually be
14 where the emphasis of the court should be and that
15 is whether there is policies that are so unselective
16 and unrestricted such as the place may be fairly
17 open to the public.
18 So, here, the testimony indicates that the
19 operation does appear to be open to the public in
20 terms of selectivity. There are no criteria of who
21 can join based on their purpose or based on the
22 outcome of the business or based on any particular
23 criteria, it is simply anyone who comes to the door.
24 It sounds like it can happen on a referral basis or
25 otherwise and then there is a waiting period, but
0144
1 that is all that is done.
2 There is no evaluation of the applicant's
3 compliance or lack of compliance with any stated
4 membership criteria. That's the selectivity
5 criterion is not met. And from the Public Health
6 inspections from February 2017 through April of
7 2018, the findings of the inspector made over that
8 course of more than a year also support that the
9 business was open to the public in that their
10 repeated findings of unrestricted access to the
11 entrance. There was a lack of documentation as to
12 who the members were, so there was an inability to
13 check when someone was at the door as to whether
14 they were a member or not, in violation of the
15 ability to limit the number of members.
16 So then the third issue is whether the
17 business is a place of employment. And there the
18 statute defines a place of employment at 70.160.020
19 as a place under the control of the owner in which
20 employees are required to pass through during the
21 course of employment, entrances and exits to the
22 places employment are included.
23 And so, here, there is some question as to
24 whether Mr. Senny (phonetic) and Mr. Crombie are
25 employees or not. It sounds like they're business
0145
1 partners but in another location and so there's a
2 question as to whether their helping out at the
3 Renton location could be deemed employment; sounds
4 like there's a question as to whether friends
5 helping out can be deemed employees or not.
6 Yelp and Facebook information show that
7 there were at least on several occasions either DJs
8 or belly dancers and there's a question as to
9 whether they were volunteering or friends or just
10 helping out or employees. However, it is undisputed
11 that there is, I believe it was on each of the
12 inspections by King County Public Health there was a
13 security guard who was inside or had just come from
14 inside. And so it is undisputed at least as to the
15 security guard that Kazi's is a place of employment.
16 Finally, the American Legion case, which I cited for
17 as having upheld the constitutionality of Initiative
18 901, emphasized again that if a place offers indoor
19 smoking then it is a violation of the indoor smoking
20 ban if it is a place of employment or a public place
21 or both. And so, here, King County found that
22 Kazi's is a place where smoking occurs. It's also a
23 public place and finally that it is also a place of
24 employment.
25 And based upon the King County Public
0146
1 Health's (indiscernible) determination in an April
2 16th letter, which is Exhibit 3, the City concluded
3 that there was a violation of state and local law
4 and health regulation and that will properly issue
5 an order to close the business and we ask that that
6 order be affirmed.
7 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay. Unfortunately,
8 my laptop battery just went out, so I'm kind of
9 quoting from memory G7, the code provision you're
10 relying on for this. I think when it talks about
11 remedies it says that the examiner shall affirm the
12 closing of the business if it's established that the
13 business has failed to abate. In other words it's
14 still currently operating in violation.
15 So on the employee issue, I mean if the
16 evidence shows that the only employee at this point
17 is the security guard and it was an issue of the
18 fact that the security guard happened to be inside a
19 couple of times in the past, I mean can I really
20 make a finding that currently, I mean it sounds like
21 Ms. Kazi is now taking the effort to tell the
22 security guard to stay outside. So could I still,
23 given those circumstances, come up with, you know,
24 (indiscernible) was a finding that currently the way
25 the business is being operated, you know, employees
0147
1 are working inside and subject to that smoke?
2 MS. CLARK: Yes.
3 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay. Well, how?
4 Yeah.
5 MS. CLARK: And here's why.
6 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay.
7 MS. CLARK: So under principles
8 articulated I think perhaps most famously in that
9 Supreme Court's the Gwaltney case, which I cannot
10 give you the cite for but I think it's somewhere
11 around 505 U.S. that was an environmental case. But
12 the court held that if a violation is recurrent,
13 without any remedying steps having been shown to
14 prevent a recurrence of the issue, it is deemed an
15 ongoing violation.
16 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay.
17 MS. CLARK: And so here the testimony was
18 that the business owner, when the inspector was
19 present, in front of the inspector said, you know,
20 "Don't be inside." However, each successive time
21 that the inspector appeared that same issue was
22 occurring. And so, here, there we have the Hearing
23 Examiner has no reasonable basis to expect that the
24 outcome has changed.
25 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, okay. And also
0148
1 you make reference to the guidelines by Department
2 counsel. Those have been adopted as regulations; is
3 that correct? If I look at 19.03 will they be all
4 spelled out there?
5 MS. CLARK: That is an excellent point.
6 The regulations are in 19.03 Public Health Code.
7 The guidelines, I believe, are -- I don't want to
8 mischaracterize what (indiscernible), but I believe
9 that they are truly operating guidelines, practices
10 and procedures of Public Health.
11 HEARING EXAMINER: I mean because you had
12 quoted from the City Code that said if they're in
13 violation of statutes or I believe it was
14 regulations that --
15 MS. CLARK: Yes.
16 HEARING EXAMINER: But if the guidelines
17 aren't regulations are they applicable here then?
18 MS. CLARK: Yeah, yeah. And thank you for
19 that question.
20 HEARING EXAMINER: Yeah.
21 MS. CLARK: I should have clarified. What
22 I meant was that the health regulations are King
23 County Board of Health Chapter 19.03 which is the
24 county implementation of the indoor smoking ban.
25 And for Public Health's own purposes in determining
0149
1 compliance and in conducting inspections it has
2 developed the guidelines to flesh out what the
3 health regulations set forth in Board of Health
4 Chapter 19.03 provides.
5 HEARING EXAMINER: So you think that -- I
6 mean the City position is those qualify as
7 regulations under the City's business license
8 regulations then?
9 MS. CLARK: The City's position is that
10 King County Board of Health Chapter 19.03 is a
11 health regulation.
12 HEARING EXAMINER: Yeah, but you said the
13 guidelines aren't part of 19.03. They were adopted
14 to implement 19.03 or something.
15 MS. CLARK: Yeah. And so, yes, and I'm
16 not trying to say otherwise. The City's position is
17 that King County Public Health is charged with
18 (indiscernible) for enforcing and implementing the
19 indoor smoking ban. And so what it has done
20 regulations and laws-wise is it has adopted Chapter
21 19.03 of the Board of Health regulations that as I
22 indicated before mirror the state law.
23 HEARING EXAMINER: Right.
24 MS. CLARK: And so within its authority to
25 then implement the indoor smoking ban and measure a
0150
1 compliance within King County, there is a certain
2 level of deference that ought to be given to the
3 County as to how it interprets its own code in its
4 capacity for enforcing a law within the county.
5 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay. So they can be
6 viewed as kind of interpretations of 19.03 in one
7 sense. Because there was one part I was having a
8 little trouble with was, you know, county officials
9 saying that they found that it was open to the
10 public because Ms. Kazi wasn't able to show the
11 membership roles, you know.
12 And if the regulation is, you know, thou
13 shalt have membership standards, the failure to show
14 membership rolls doesn't establish that there isn't
15 a membership program in place. It's an evidentiary
16 problem at the time that she wasn't able to make her
17 case, but if she could prove that now, you know, it
18 seems to supersede the fact she wasn't able to
19 produce the documentation required at the time, so.
20 MS. CLARK: Yes. And it is for that
21 precise reason --
22 HEARING EXAMINER: Yeah.
23 MS. CLARK: -- that I said I read the
24 provisions of the statute --
25 HEARING EXAMINER: Right.
0151
1 MS. CLARK: -- to indicate that it is bare
2 bones. That it does provide a definition of what a
3 public place is, but it is not descriptive in how to
4 make that determination --
5 HEARING EXAMINER: Yeah, yeah.
6 MS. CLARK: -- or not, which is why the
7 Washington Supreme Court in -- although not directly
8 on point, it does provide useful guidance as to how
9 our Supreme Court might evaluate the public place
10 question within the context of Initiative 901.
11 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay.
12 MS. CLARK: And that again as I mentioned
13 that King County Public Health is due some deference
14 in its capacity as the agency tasked with enforcing
15 --
16 HEARING EXAMINER: Yeah, yeah.
17 MS. CLARK: -- the state law.
18 HEARING EXAMINER: Okay, makes sense,
19 great.
20 Well, yeah, I'm not -- well, first of all,
21 of course there's still some evidence that's going
22 to be considered after the close of the hearing
23 today, the video, so I couldn't if I wanted to say
24 which way I'm going to rule. But I can't say, at
25 this point I don't know because I really have to dig
0152
1 into the King County regulations and the evidence.
2 What I typically do after hearings
3 especially this length, as one of the people working
4 for me then gives me a summary of the three-hour
5 hearing and I go over everything in detail and I can
6 look up parts where it's unclear, you know, or I
7 can't remember what was said. So I'm going to
8 examine the evidence that was produced today very
9 carefully and see how the law applies.
10 As I mentioned, Ms. Kazi, you know, I
11 don't have the authority to invalidate any
12 regulations or I don't have the discretion to say,
13 "Well, this is an unfair, ridiculous law, I'm not
14 going to apply it." I have to apply whatever's on
15 the books. And so that's how, you know, my
16 decision's going to be guided.
17 And I really want to say too that you are
18 a very impressive, articulate, very smart person and
19 you certainly sound to me like a responsible
20 business owner, you know, but responsibility isn't a
21 key factor in this. The issue is whether you're
22 violating Washington smoking laws and King County
23 regulations that implement that.
24 So that is what I have to look at and, you
25 know, personally I'd, you know, if a bunch of people
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1 want to smoke in private and even if they pay for it
2 and everyone's consenting, I don't know what the
3 problem is. But, you know, if that's the law,
4 that's the law and I've got to follow it. So I've
5 got some work ahead of me and I'll be looking at
6 that very closely.
7 Now in terms of the videos, let's see, can
8 you get that to Ms. Clark by next Monday at 5
9 o'clock, we'll say, and then, Ms. Clark, let me know
10 if you've got any objections what, the next day? Is
11 24 hours enough or are you real busy then or is that
12 -- okay.
13 MS. CLARK: (Indiscernible).
14 HEARING EXAMINER: Yeah, just let me know
15 by the next day. And you can just include me and
16 Ms. Moya, yourself and Ms. Kazi, we'll all be in the
17 same email string where we do that. So when you
18 send the video clip to Ms. Clark, cc: me and Ms.
19 Moya. I won't look at the video until after any
20 objections have been made and ruled upon.
21 But then Ms. Clark will let me know by the
22 next day if she has any problems. If there is, then
23 I'll entertain arguments, you know, on whether or
24 not the video should be admitted, and then if I say
25 it is admitted then I'll look at it. That's how
0154
1 that'll work.
2 So any questions or anything? I think
3 we've hashed this out pretty well. Everyone really,
4 you know, did a good job of representing their
5 particular positions. It's very educational for me
6 and I almost want to go to a hookah lounge just to
7 see what it looks like. But anyway, appreciate your
8 testimony today and we're done for this afternoon.
9 Thank you.
10 MS. KAZI: Thank you.
11 (WHEREUPON, the hearing concluded at 5:01
12 p.m.)
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0155
1 CERTIFICATE
2
3 I, Patty English, do hereby certify that the proceeding
4 named herein was professionally transcribed on the date set
5 forth in the certificate herein; that I transcribed all
6 testimony adduced and other oral proceedings had in the
7 foregoing matter; and that the foregoing transcript pages
8 constitute a full, true, and correct record of such
9 testimony adduced and oral proceeding had and of the whole
10 thereof.
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12 IN WITNESS HEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this
13 22nd day of January, 2019.
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17 /S/ Patty English, AAERT 843
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