HomeMy WebLinkAboutEx 28 Tamara Crisp Vol 1 Nov 17 2020.pdfDeposition of Tamara Crisp
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.
November 17, 2020
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
1325 Fourth Avenue, Suite 1840, Seattle, Washington 98101
www.buellrealtime.com
email: info@buellrealtime.com
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 1
BEFORE THE HEARING EXAMINER OF THE CITY OF RENTON
________________________________________________________
RE: )
)
TracFone Wireless, Inc. )
)
Administrative Appeal )
)
________________________________________________________
VIDEOCONFERENCE DEPOSITION UPON ORAL EXAMINATION
OF
TAMARA CRISP
________________________________________________________
(All participants appearing via Zoom videoconference.)
Taken at
Spanaway, Washington
DATE TAKEN: November 17, 2020
REPORTED BY: KATHLEEN HAMILTON, RPR, CRR, CCR 1917
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 2
1 A P P E A R A N C E S
2
APPEARING VIA ZOOM FOR THE APPELLANT:
3
SCOTT EDWARDS
4 GRANT S. DEGGINGER
Lane Powell PC
5 1420 Fifth Avenue
Suite 4200
6 Seattle, Washington 98111
206.223.7000
7 EdwardsS@LanePowell.com
deggingerg@lanepowell.com
8
9
APPEARING VIA ZOOM FOR THE CITY OF RENTON:
10
KARI L. SAND
11 Ogden Murphy Wallace P.L.L.C.
901 Fifth Avenue
12 Suite 3500
Seattle, Washington 98164
13 206.447.7000
ksand@omwlaw.com
14
15
16
* * * * *
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 3
1 DEPOSITION OF TAMARA CRISP
2 EXAMINATION INDEX
3 EXAMINATION BY PAGE
4 MR. EDWARDS.............................................. 4
5
6
7 EXHIBIT INDEX
8 EXHIBITS FOR IDENTIFICATION PAGE
9 48 Email from Nicholas Ford to Scott M. Edwards sent 89
November 10, 2020
10 49 March 2008 Billing Platform Sales TracFone 93
Wireless Inc. Renton Utility Users' Tax Audit
11 Audit Period -- 1/1/2007 to 5/31/2013 **
CONFIDENTIAL **
12 50 APP Tax Report MARCH 2008 TracFone Wireless Inc. 93
Renton Utility Users' Tax Audit Audit Period --
13 1/1/2007 to 5/31/2013 ** CONFIDENTIAL **
16 Email from TRS to Jan Hawn and Nate Malone sent 105
14 August 8, 2017
17 Email from Jan Hawn to TRS and Nate Malone sent 136
15 August 10, 2017
51 Email from TRS to Jan Hawn and Nate Malone sent 157
16 December 8, 2017
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 4
1 SPANAWAY, WASHINGTON; NOVEMBER 17, 2020
2 9:31 a.m.
3 -o0o-
4
5 TAMARA CRISP witness herein, having been
6 first duly sworn on oath,
7 was examined and testified
8 as follows:
9
10 E X A M I N A T I O N
11 BY MR. EDWARDS:
12 Q. Can you please state your name for the record,
13 spelling your last name.
14 A. Tamara Lynn Crisp. C-r-i-s-p.
15 Q. Ms. Crisp, have you ever been deposed before?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Okay. I'm going to, yeah, start by just -- and
18 I guess maybe help to reintroduce myself. My name is
19 Scott Edwards. I'm one of the lawyers representing
20 TracFone Wireless, Inc. in connection with an appeal of
21 a tax assessment prepared by Tax Recovery Services, LLC
22 on behalf of the City of Renton. Are you familiar with
23 that matter?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. A few ground rules that we had discussed with
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 5
1 your husband's deposition a little while ago. The court
2 reporter is transcribing both my questions and your
3 answers, so it's important for both of us to wait for
4 the other one to finish before either of us speaks. So
5 if you can wait till I finish my questions, I will
6 attempt to wait to finish -- or let you finish your
7 answers so that we're not speaking over each other. Do
8 you understand that?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And then another item is: It's important to
11 answer verbally. The court reporter cannot interpret
12 and record nonverbal responses. Do you understand that?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Okay. If you do not understand or do not hear
15 the question, please let me know and I'll either
16 rephrase or repeat the question. Do you understand
17 that?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And I'm looking for your best, most truthful
20 answer. If you need to go back and correct something
21 later in the deposition, just let me know and we can go
22 back and -- and capture your corrected answer on the
23 transcript. Do you understand?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And then finally, if you -- if you need a break
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 6
1 at any time, just ask. This is not a marathon and --
2 and we're -- we're not trying to make anybody
3 uncomfortable. The only thing I ask is that if there's
4 a question pending, that you answer that question before
5 we take the break. Do you understand that?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Okay.
8 Who did you speak with to prepare for your
9 deposition today?
10 A. Who did I speak with today?
11 Q. No, who did you speak with to prepare for your
12 deposition today?
13 A. Mike helped quiz me, you know, Mr. Crisp, and
14 I -- I got some advice from Kari on what the deposition
15 was going to be like and what questions I might be able
16 to expect.
17 Q. Did you speak with anybody from the City at all?
18 A. Not at length.
19 Q. And did you speak with Jan Hawn?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Okay. Who did you speak with from the City?
22 A. I think we had a brief meeting with... Nate
23 there, Leslie there, and Kari just talking about the
24 deposition that was coming up. But we didn't get into
25 specifics that I remember.
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 7
1 Q. Okay. And, you know, was that a in-person
2 meeting or a --
3 (Inaudible due to crosstalk.)
4 THE WITNESS: It was Zoom. And that's --
5 that's it.
6 BY MR. EDWARDS:
7 Q. Yeah, I'm sorry, I didn't hear your answer
8 there.
9 A. You can't hear me, huh?
10 Q. No, I think we were talking over each other. So
11 I'm sorry, did you -- you indicated what type of meeting
12 that was?
13 A. Zoom.
14 Q. Okay. And when -- when approximately was that
15 meeting held?
16 A. I'm not sure. I think it was early October.
17 I'm not sure.
18 Q. You ever spoken with Garth Ashpaugh?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. When did you speak with Mr. Ashpaugh?
21 A. I think last week.
22 Q. What did you discuss with Mr. Ashpaugh?
23 A. Can't remember. Let's see. We... When did he
24 call -- when did we call? Maybe you could ask this
25 question later, you know, as I'll remember. I wasn't
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 8
1 prepared to answer that question. I know I talked with
2 him.
3 Q. You don't recall what you talked with him about?
4 A. No, I mean, I know it had to do... you know,
5 about some terminology, whether -- what we were going to
6 refer to certain entities by the same -- the same words,
7 you know, so that we'd be consistent and we wouldn't be
8 calling the same thing different names. I remember
9 talking about that.
10 Q. What was some of the terminology that you
11 discussed?
12 A. Well, it was just basically the retail stores
13 and I finally just decided I'd call them retail stores
14 and not give them any specific name, you know, like an
15 intermediary or whatever. Because I think of them as
16 intermediaries and...
17 Q. Any other terms that you discussed?
18 A. Actually it was just that term, which terms
19 among those that I would use for the retail stores.
20 Q. What other terms did you discuss as
21 possibilities other than retail stores and [distorted
22 audio]?
23 A. Retail agents. And that's the one he liked.
24 And so we looked through definitions.
25 Q. So you looked through definitions. What --
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 9
1 A. I did, and then I brought them to his attention.
2 Q. Did you discuss any of the terms in Renton's
3 code or Washington statutes?
4 A. I wish I had a better memory of that. We --
5 let's see. I'll feel a lot more comfortable as this
6 progresses and my brain will be working faster. But we
7 may have discussed, like, network services, network...
8 but I don't remember. So I'm sorry.
9 Q. Okay. When you say "network services," what --
10 what are you referring to?
11 A. Just how the code talks about network services,
12 you know... Since I'm not remembering, it doesn't do us
13 any good to guess.
14 Q. Do you --
15 (Inaudible due to crosstalk.)
16 BY MR. EDWARDS:
17 Q. Yeah, did you take any notes during your
18 conversation with Mr. Ashpaugh?
19 A. No, huh-uh.
20 Q. Who else was on the call?
21 A. No one.
22 Q. Who initiated the call?
23 A. It must have been him. I don't remember calling
24 him. My memory's so bad.
25 Q. Approximately how long did the conversation
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 10
1 last?
2 A. Again I'm guessing. 15 minutes.
3 Q. Have you had any other conversations with
4 Mr. Ashpaugh other than the one that you've just been
5 discussing?
6 A. That's the only time I've spoken to him by phone
7 or on Zoom that I can remember.
8 Q. What about via other mediums?
9 A. Direct, like, emails.
10 Q. That would be one, yes. Have you -- have you
11 communicated with Mr. Ashpaugh via email?
12 A. I -- he's probably been cc'd on things that the
13 team was working on as how to get ready for the
14 deposition.
15 Q. When you say "team," who are you referring to?
16 A. There's Kari and Mr. Crisp and I, and Nate
17 Malone, and... who else. Leslie, I forgot her last
18 name. And -- sorry, I've got a crack in my throat. And
19 then sometimes Garth would be on it too.
20 Q. I'm going to change gears a little bit here.
21 Can you describe your educational background for me
22 starting with any college education?
23 A. I just have a mechanical engineering degree from
24 the University of Washington. And my background was --
25 my experience before coming -- opening this company was
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 11
1 in mechanical engineering.
2 Q. A undergraduate degree in mechanical
3 engineering?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Bachelor of Science?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Okay.
8 When did you receive that degree?
9 A. I think it was 1981.
10 Q. Do you have any postgraduate training?
11 A. No formal training. When we started this
12 company, I started as administrative, but it started to
13 become clear that my technical expertise was -- and
14 mathematical background was very helpful in the audits,
15 so I pretty much learned on the job.
16 Q. Okay. So you don't have any training in -- in
17 finance or -- or auditing; is that correct?
18 A. Well, I've been a big part of -- some part, and
19 lots of times a big parts of 35 audits by now.
20 Actually, it's in excess of that, because I got that
21 from our invoices and not -- there's definitely
22 taxpayers we audit that end up owing nothing. They
23 weren't on the list. So we have done a lot of audits.
24 And the more complicated the audit is, the more likely
25 Mr. Crisp is to ask me to -- to have a big -- big part
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 12
1 in that.
2 Q. Let me talk about your employment background
3 after college and before you -- before Tax Recovery
4 Services was founded.
5 A. Okay. My first position actually I took...
6 engineering training positions before I graduated for --
7 with the General Services Administration, Puget Sound
8 Naval Shipyard and Bouillon, Christofferson and Schairer
9 consulting engineers. When I graduated I was hired by
10 Bouillon, Christofferson, Schairer, and with -- when a
11 really big project came up, I switched to Boeing and I
12 worked in -- for their division of... what was it
13 called. Just a second. BCS, which is the Boeing
14 Computer Services, and I worked there for -- till 1989
15 when my son was born. He was -- it was the end of 1988
16 and he was born in the beginning of 1989.
17 Q. And then did you go back to work after that or
18 no?
19 A. No, a series of things came up with -- with
20 health problems and -- and schooling needs of my
21 children and so I ended up, I was studying -- starting
22 to study technical drafting skills that had become more
23 common for engineers to use and go back when my husband
24 opened this company and -- and hired me. Actually I'm a
25 part owner, but I started getting into this company
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 13
1 and -- and we were able to make it work with that, just
2 that. And that was in 2004.
3 Q. 2004 is when --
4 (Inaudible due to crosstalk.)
5 THE WITNESS: Uh-huh, uh-huh.
6 Oh, sorry. Say it again?
7 BY MR. EDWARDS:
8 Q. 2004 is when Tax Recovery Services was created?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Were you a equity owner of Tax Recovery Services
11 at the beginning?
12 A. I'm not sure what you mean by "equity owner". I
13 think we started out 50/50 and then we decided that it'd
14 be better to have him be the majority owner and we
15 switched to 2 percent/98 percent, him owning the
16 majority of the company.
17 Q. When did that switch occur?
18 A. Oh, man. That I don't remember. It was fairly
19 early on. Certainly in the first three years I would
20 think.
21 Q. Are you an officer in Tax Recovery Services?
22 A. My title is vice president of administration and
23 technical analysis.
24 Q. Who are the other officers of Tax Recovery
25 Services?
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 14
1 A. Only Mr. Crisp. He's the president. We're both
2 member managers by the State of Washington.
3 Q. Are either of you an employee of Tax Recovery
4 Services?
5 A. No.
6 Q. So your compensation from Tax Recovery Services
7 is limited to distributions related to your ownership
8 interest?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Does Tax Recovery Services have any employees?
11 A. Right now we're down to just one: Nathan Crisp,
12 an auditor. In the past we've had -- let's see, we've
13 got... We've had five other ones that I can -- oh, six.
14 Six... oh, and counting -- counting the one we have now,
15 seven. So we've always been so that we could expand and
16 contract. Because it employs, except for our son, is
17 they're all part-time. Even him, his hours go down if
18 we need to.
19 Q. Were -- who at Tax Recovery Services was
20 involved with the Renton audit of TracFone?
21 A. Right. I think Mr. Crisp is the one that
22 initiated the audit or -- and the relationship with
23 Renton. And I did the... most of the -- of course I
24 came up with the math -- methodology. I think I drafted
25 all of the most complicated emails. Mr. Crisp would
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 15
1 read them over, edit them, and comment on them, and --
2 and then he -- he would sign them.
3 We did... I did the spreadsheet. I designed the
4 spreadsheet. It was very complicated the way we had to
5 go at it. And you'll probably be asking about that
6 later and I'll explain that.
7 And then Nathan Crisp, he's the one that did
8 most of the inputting for us. In fact, he kind of cut
9 his teeth on learning how to do spreadsheets on this
10 audit, so -- but he was, of course, heavily supervised
11 and we -- we checked everything very carefully.
12 Q. I'd like to move now to Exhibit 1 from
13 Mr. Crisp's audit. Do you have that available in front
14 of you?
15 A. Yes, let me open this.
16 MS. SAND: And this is Bates number 443?
17 MR. EDWARDS: Correct, yes.
18 THE WITNESS: I have.
19 BY MR. EDWARDS:
20 Q. Do you -- do you recognize this as a -- as a
21 contract between Renton and Tax Recovery Services?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Okay.
24 What role did you have with respect to Tax
25 Recovery Services' signing up Renton as a client?
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 16
1 A. I pretty much worked on the contracts. It's
2 quite a process when we do a contract because a lot of
3 times the City -- I'm pretty sure looking at this, the
4 City gave us their contract. Then we need to make quite
5 a few adjustments on -- on, you know, the terms, the
6 services. I had to make sure that legal requirements
7 they make of us are ones that we can sign onto too.
8 There's quite a lot in the negotiations, I was mostly
9 the one involved in that because I'm -- you know,
10 administrative... type of vice president. That's kind
11 of how I started out in the company.
12 (Pause in the proceedings.)
13 BY MR. EDWARDS:
14 Q. So you -- am I correct in understanding that you
15 were the primary negotiator with the City of Renton with
16 respect to the contract terms?
17 A. Yes, to -- Mr. Crisp oversees everything I
18 did -- I do and approve of it, but I was the one
19 assigned to do that.
20 Q. And you had indicated that the contract is
21 partly the City of Renton's form of contract with
22 additions and revisions that -- that you proposed on
23 behalf of TRS?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Are those revisions primarily reflected in the
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 17
1 three exhibits to the contract: Exhibits A, B and C?
2 A. A, B and C. That's the -- the major -- on
3 this -- let me see -- let me look at C really quick,
4 refresh my mind here.
5 (Reviews exhibit.)
6 I'm pretty sure that part C has very few
7 revisions. This one had to be a Renton requirement.
8 It's for their benefit, not ours. But the A and B,
9 yeah, those are -- are the prime -- primary revisions.
10 And I'm rattling again. Sorry about that, Kate.
11 Q. Exhibit A are your standard form of exhibits to
12 contracts with cities, not just the City of Renton?
13 A. Yeah, I'm not seeing changes that I can find on
14 this Exhibit A that weren't originated by us.
15 Q. Did a lawyer assist you with respect to drafting
16 Exhibits A and B?
17 A. Well, we haven't had a company lawyer since,
18 like, 2009 or before. So to the extent that we had a
19 lawyer help us with our first couple contracts for the
20 company, then he may have said something about it, but I
21 know... Exhibit B was something that we came up with
22 when we had clients that were a little bit confused
23 about what we meant. And so we came up with that
24 without the help of a lawyer.
25 Q. Are all of Tax Recovery Services' audits
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 18
1 performed on the same type of compensation structure as
2 reflected on Exhibit B?
3 A. We do... Excuse me. Let me see if I can get
4 the terminology.
5 (Reviews exhibit.)
6 Well, let me explain the situation. When a
7 taxpayer comes and says, We grossly overpaid, we want
8 our money back, sometimes they'll hire us and it's a
9 different contract than this. It's an hourly type of a
10 situation. This contract does not cover those types of
11 audits. Other than that, we do it on a percent basis.
12 Q. Okay. So when you represent taxing authorities,
13 you charge a percentage of the tax recovered. When you
14 represent taxpayers, you charge taxpayers on an hourly
15 basis?
16 A. No, we don't represent taxpayers. Even in -- in
17 that other type of audit, the -- that we would represent
18 the City and try to figure out if the taxpayer is
19 correct in their assessment, did they deserve a refund.
20 And -- and that, of course, there would be no recovery
21 at all, it would be done for free if we didn't charge
22 hourly.
23 Q. These are situations where a taxpayer has filed
24 a refund claim with a city and the city retains Tax
25 Recovery Services to review the taxpayer's refund claim;
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 19
1 am I correct in that --
2 A. Right.
3 Q. -- in that?
4 A. Tax refund audits, yeah. So other than that, we
5 don't do hourly.
6 Q. You had mentioned that you had reviewed invoices
7 related to 35 audits in preparation for your testimony
8 today. How many of those 35 audits involved reviews of
9 tax refund claims brought by taxpayers?
10 A. None.
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. I don't believe... Wait a minute. None that I
13 can remember.
14 Q. I'd like to direct your attention to the first
15 page of Exhibit 1, paragraph 2 titled SERVICES. Do you
16 see that paragraph?
17 A. Uh-huh.
18 Q. Beginning... or I want to direct your attention
19 to the second half of the first sentence of that
20 paragraph indicating that the contractor shall perform
21 the services, quote, In a manner consistent with the
22 accepted professional practices for other similar
23 services within the Puget Sound region.
24 Do you see that?
25 A. Yes.
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 20
1 Q. Okay.
2 What is your understanding of what "other
3 similar services" are?
4 A. At the time of this contract, we believed that
5 there was only two cities in the entire state that had
6 their own auditing services. That was the City of
7 Seattle and the City of Tacoma. And my husband worked
8 for quite a few years, quite a few years at the City of
9 Tacoma. And he learned the -- you know, the best and
10 most safe and... quality... quality manner in which to
11 do an audit, what situations to avoid, what questions to
12 ask, how to interact. He -- he knew all of that stuff
13 from much repetition and really good training. I think
14 he was trained by the best auditor in the state,
15 Mr. Jerry Wheeler. And he -- he did so many audits of
16 many kinds. So I feel that he knew, he was one of the
17 people who could teach classes like that. He -- you
18 know, there was only so many auditors in the state who
19 knew how to do these things and he was one of them.
20 Q. When you say "these things," what are you
21 referring to?
22 A. Tax audits.
23 Q. City tax audits specifically?
24 A. City, yeah. Not state tax audits, yes. Thank
25 you. City tax audits.
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 21
1 Q. Focused on particular types of city taxes?
2 A. Is that a question?
3 Q. Yes. Are you -- are we referring to all types
4 of city taxes or only specific types of city taxes?
5 A. At the City of Tacoma he did all types.
6 Q. And what types did that include?
7 A. He did both B&O and utility audits. You know,
8 you're asking me what he did and I'm not an expert in
9 what he did. I just know he had really good credentials
10 when he opened up this company, that he had done well at
11 the City of Tacoma and he was more than able to bring
12 those skills for the benefit of other cities. That's
13 all I know.
14 Q. Okay.
15 You -- you had testified that you were involved
16 in negotiating this contract and one of the things that
17 you did was to make sure that Tax Recovery Services
18 could comply with the terms of the contract; correct?
19 A. Uh-huh, yes.
20 Q. And I'm trying to understand, you know, what
21 your -- how you came to the determination that Tax
22 Recovery Services could operate in a manner consistent
23 with the -- consistent with the accepted professional
24 practices for other similar services within the Puget
25 Sound region. If I have heard your testimony correctly,
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 22
1 it's basically because similar services were limited to
2 city audits conducted by the cities of Seattle and
3 Tacoma, and your husband had extensive experience as a
4 City of Tacoma auditor and understood how that city
5 conducted audits; is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you know whether City of Tacoma or City of
8 Seattle auditors were paid on a percentage of the
9 recovery of the audits that they wrote up for those
10 cities?
11 A. No, they were not.
12 Q. I'd like to direct your attention now to Exhibit
13 A on the page 8 of 10 at Bates number 450.
14 A. Pardon me?
15 Q. Page -- Exhibit A at page 8 of 10 which has the
16 Bates number 450 on it. Do you see that page?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Item number 7 that is talking about, after a
19 draft schedule has been prepared, it says, "TRS will
20 then work with the company to help them understand that
21 the audit is done correctly and in accordance to the
22 law, and that payment is due." Do you see that?
23 A. Uh-huh.
24 Q. What actions did TRS take to work with TracFone
25 to help TracFone understand that TRS's audit was done
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 23
1 correctly and in accordance to the law?
2 A. There were quite a few emails going back and
3 forth between TRS and the -- and the tax representative
4 for TracFone, Mr. Ford. We sent copies of the
5 applicable statutes to him. We tried to explain to them
6 how their business we felt did not preclude taxation.
7 We pointed out that they were -- what we still believe
8 very strongly, they were a telephone company. And they
9 sold their, you know, access that they had contracted
10 for to a telephone network. And it -- it wasn't having
11 any -- any traction.
12 Another thing that we do -- and we spoke on the
13 telephone with Mr. Ford and Mr. Dillon, the vice
14 president of tax at TracFone, and tried to make the same
15 points to them. We listened to their points. We got
16 nowhere, as far as I could tell.
17 We did -- also we -- we sent copies of the audit
18 to them asking for their response and what they --
19 anything they objected to. And most -- most taxpayers
20 can help us improve the audit at that point, but the
21 problem is that TracFone appeared to be convinced that
22 they didn't owe any tax at all, so a lot of that back
23 and forth just didn't help and... so it made our job
24 really difficult.
25 We would have loved to have been able to make
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 24
1 TracFone comfortable with our audits. We -- we tried to
2 make the estimate reasonable from their point of view as
3 we possibly could, but we -- we realized pretty early on
4 it was going to take some -- you know, some kind of
5 legal interaction between the City and TracFone before
6 they would -- you know, that auditors were not going to
7 convince them that their position -- because we did our
8 best. We did our best.
9 Q. TracFone ever ask to meet with Tax Recovery
10 Services to talk about the theory underlying the audit?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did TRS ever agree to any such meetings?
13 A. We did the telephone thing with Mr. Ford and
14 Mr. Dillon. But after that, when they wanted to bring a
15 lawyer in, we felt that we'd be a little bit out-gunned.
16 (Laughter). And we -- we also wanted a written track of
17 what was said by whom. We find that a email exchange
18 gives us time to contemplate what was said, research and
19 respond definitively. Whereas a telephone, you know, a
20 in-person meeting with a lawyer sounded like it was...
21 it would be a uncontrolled situation. So that's all I
22 can say.
23 Q. Did you ever send an email to TracFone that
24 explained the theory that was the basis for the
25 assessment? Not the mechanics of how the numbers were
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 25
1 calculated, but why tax was due.
2 A. Oh, yes, I think I've got, yeah, we -- we quoted
3 the... We quoted the code, both the Renton code and the
4 State code to them. We explained to them why we thought
5 that they were a telephone company. We tried to explain
6 to them why we thought that they had facilities, because
7 they kept saying they weren't facility -- non-facility
8 based, and we explained to them our position on the
9 resale situation, why the -- the network providers were
10 not taxable and the retail stores weren't taxable. We
11 explained all of that in emails.
12 Q. To TracFone?
13 A. We did everything we could to explain our
14 position with TracFone. We -- we would have loved to
15 get them to agree to what we were convinced was the
16 case. We heard a lot of their objections and we
17 responded to them. But it was on email.
18 Q. Those are emails between TracFone and TRS?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. Would you consider those emails to be
21 part of the audit file for --
22 A. Yes. We sent them all -- sorry.
23 Yes, they're part of the audit file. We sent
24 the -- oh, yeah. You have copies of all of them, but we
25 haven't done -- we're having a windstorm like crazy
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 26
1 right now. Hope our power doesn't go out.
2 But the -- we're planning right after the
3 deposition to copy and paste all of those and send them
4 to you, send them and to Renton. But the deposition
5 kept getting put off, so we just kept studying for -- I
6 kept studying for the deposition instead of doing that.
7 This is the -- you know, quite a few years this audit's
8 been going on. There was a lot to review.
9 Q. I want to make sure that I -- I understand what
10 I think I just heard from you. You've indicated that
11 you are in the process of putting together the universe
12 of emails that you are describing in your answer, but
13 those have not yet been produced to us; is that correct?
14 A. They haven't been produced, and I plan to
15 produce them. I'd like to apologize for not producing
16 them sooner. I was confused since you have all of those
17 emails, your -- your client has them all. I'm not used
18 to legal proceedings, so I couldn't see any reason why
19 doing it. It will take quite a bit of time and -- but
20 we plan to get that to you in the next couple weeks.
21 Q. There are -- some of the emails that you're
22 referring to am I correct in understanding would only
23 relate to the Renton audit?
24 A. We would... We're only going to produce emails
25 that relate to the Renton-TracFone audit.
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 27
1 Q. Isn't it true that there are emails between TRS
2 and TracFone that relate in a single email to multiple
3 audits involving different cities?
4 A. I am not willing to discuss in this deposition
5 things outside --
6 Q. That'd be a yes-or-no question.
7 (Inaudible due to crosstalk.)
8 THE WITNESS: -- deposition. If -- if it
9 has to do with another company, another taxpayer,
10 another city, I believe it's beyond the scope of this
11 deposition and it also could -- you know, there's
12 privacy agreements I have that I -- I'm not comfortable
13 doing that, I'm sorry.
14 BY MR. EDWARDS:
15 Q. I am not asking you to disclose any names of any
16 cities. I am asking you a yes-or-no question. Is it
17 true that some of the emails from TRS to TracFone
18 contain the names of more than one city?
19 A. If that is true, then they will be redacted
20 before they come to you.
21 Q. Okay.
22 So you will be producing, on a redacted basis,
23 all emails that relate to the Renton audit with any
24 information related to other audits redacted; am I
25 correct in understanding that?
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 28
1 A. Any information outside of the Renton-TracFone
2 audit will be removed if it's there.
3 Q. I'd like to turn your attention next to Exhibit
4 4.
5 A. Okay.
6 Q. That's Bates number 530.
7 A. Okay, got you.
8 Q. Do you recognize Exhibit 4 as an email from Tax
9 Recovery Services to -- to the City of Renton?
10 A. Yeah, I would think so.
11 Q. Who is Iwen referred to in the "to" line?
12 A. Iwen.
13 Q. Iwen, pardon me.
14 Who is Iwen, the person to whom the email is
15 directed?
16 A. She's -- what's her title? I know she was the
17 main person we were working with at first with City of
18 Renton, and she has since left the City.
19 Q. Did you ever deal directly with her yourself?
20 A. Including via email?
21 Q. Yes.
22 A. I might have worked with her on the contract.
23 Or was that Jan Hawn. I would look at the contract.
24 Whenever there's a email from Mike, they usually -- if
25 it's not really simple, you know, we have worked on it
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 29
1 together. So in that sense, yes. I might have gone
2 directly -- definitely when it comes to the contract, I
3 sign my own emails. Does that answer your question?
4 Q. I think for the time being.
5 A. Okay.
6 Q. When I look at -- at the "from" line, it shows
7 that the email address is crisp@trs-integrity.com.
8 A. Uh-huh.
9 Q. Is that a email address that is used exclusively
10 by Mr. Crisp or do both of you use a single email
11 address?
12 A. We use a single email address.
13 Q. And you had testified that many of the emails
14 that have his name at the bottom, you participated in
15 the drafting of the email; is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did you participate in the drafting of Exhibit
18 4?
19 A. (Reviews exhibit.)
20 This does look like Mike here. He's the one
21 that -- that drums up business, comes up with ideas on
22 new -- new audits that we could do. So I'm not positive
23 I was part of this. I can't say positively yes or no.
24 Q. Did you have a role in identifying TracFone as a
25 potential audit target for your city clients?
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 30
1 A. I can't remember. I'm always a sounding board
2 for -- for Mike when he's looking for new business on --
3 so in that sense, yes.
4 Q. Did you conduct any Internet research regarding
5 TracFone?
6 A. You mean before we opened the audit?
7 Q. Yes.
8 A. I'm pretty sure I didn't before we opened the
9 audit.
10 Q. Did you conduct any Internet research on
11 TracFone after you commenced auditing TracFone?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Can you please describe the Internet research
14 that you did after commencing the audit of TracFone.
15 A. We looked up TracFone's website to see what they
16 said about themselves. We probably read Wikipedia. I
17 know they're not the most reliable source of
18 information, but we found interesting things about it
19 being a telephone company. And I think we read the
20 Washington -- TracFone Washington State brief which told
21 us a lot about how the company works, the 911 case. And
22 that's probably all I did.
23 Q. When you say "brief," what are you referring to?
24 A. Oh, excuse me. The court case.
25 Q. The Court's decision?
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 31
1 A. Yeah, the decision, uh-huh. I believe.
2 Q. Let me turn your attention now to Exhibit 6.
3 A. Okay.
4 Q. Which is Bates number 1.
5 A. (Laughter). Oh, man. Oh, okay. That printed
6 out? That would be... 001, 003, 4, and 533 Bates
7 numbers?
8 Q. That's correct, yeah, 1 through 4, plus 533.
9 A. (Sotto voce comments.)
10 Okay, great.
11 Q. Do you recognize pages 1 through 4 as the July
12 2013 monthly report to Renton?
13 A. Yeah. Yeah, it looks a little strange on the
14 title. I don't know how that happened, but it must be
15 something do with the software they used.
16 Q. I'm sorry, what did you find to be strange about
17 the title?
18 A. The -- the title that, you know, where it says
19 Tax Recovery Services, I don't know how that ended up
20 like that. It must have been something on the
21 translation of the -- of the software they used versus
22 software we used.
23 Q. Oh, in how your logo --
24 A. Logo, yeah, or my letterhead, looks pretty
25 funny.
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 32
1 Q. And the redacted portion on the first page and a
2 quarter reflects a report about a taxpayer who is not
3 TracFone; is that correct?
4 A. Yeah, most likely, uh-huh.
5 Q. And then beginning about the middle of page 2 is
6 the report regarding TracFone?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Who prepared this report?
9 A. Mike, Mike does the reports. I think at this
10 time I was checking them for errors, you know, typos and
11 stuff. But there's a lot of information, we have quite
12 a few clients. We have -- we do several pages
13 sometimes, quite a few pages on -- for each of these
14 reports. So I'm not saying they're absolutely perfect.
15 They're as close as we can get. See what actually
16 happened -- we try really hard.
17 Q. I want to start with the second paragraph. It
18 says: TRS sent an email dated June 6th, 2013 to
19 TracFone informing -- informing them that our company
20 would be conducting an audit on their company.
21 Do you see that?
22 A. Yes. Last month when I was preparing for this
23 deposition, I highlighted that -- that number 6, because
24 I knew there was a typo of some sort. And so I
25 remembered to check into that. And I want to note it
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 33
1 was a typo. They -- we -- we have no email dated June
2 6th that talks about this. We hadn't even gotten
3 permission from the City till, like, the 13th I believe
4 it was. But we got an email back from TracFone, Mr. --
5 I don't know if I'm pronouncing it right -- Cavalieri
6 saying he had received our message and here is his email
7 about opening the audit, the -- the -- his email
8 address. So this was in response to apparently a phone
9 call message. So the word "email" and it must have been
10 a phone call message around June 16th, not June 6th,
11 because Mr. Cavalieri's response, as it says down here,
12 was June 20th, 2013. So it was probably off ten days
13 and -- and it must have been a telephone message. I
14 cannot find this email. If it was an email, it's been
15 lost, because I -- I can't find this email. It must
16 have been a telephone call that opened the audit.
17 Q. Let me explore a different possibility.
18 A. Okay.
19 Q. I'll observe that there's no reference to the
20 City of Renton in this sentence. Is it possible that on
21 June 6th of 2013 TRS sent an email to TracFone relating
22 to the commencement of an audit with -- on behalf of one
23 or more other cities?
24 MS. SAND: Object to the extent -- wait.
25 Excuse me.
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 34
1 Object to the extent it calls for
2 speculation.
3 Go ahead and answer, Mrs. Crisp, if you
4 know.
5 THE WITNESS: We didn't even have
6 Mr. Cavalieri's email address on June 6th. We got that
7 on the 20th.
8 BY MR. EDWARDS:
9 Q. Are you testifying that there are no emails from
10 TRS to TracFone dated June 6th, 2013, whatsoever?
11 A. We... That I can't say. I'd have to look, but
12 I don't see how, if we didn't have their email, we could
13 have done that. I guess it is speculation because I --
14 I'd have to look through very carefully. But this --
15 with respect to this audit, this had to be a typo.
16 Q. TRS was pitching --
17 (Inaudible due to crosstalk.)
18 BY MR. EDWARDS:
19 Q. -- an audit of TracFone to a number of cities in
20 June of 2013, weren't they?
21 A. I can't say. It's outside the scope of this
22 dep -- deposition.
23 Q. I'm going to instruct you to answer that
24 question. That's a yes-or-no question. I'm not asking
25 you to identify any other cities. The question --
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 35
1 A. I'm sorry.
2 Q. -- was TracFone --
3 A. I have privacy agreements that maybe you don't
4 know about or haven't considered, and I can't be put in
5 that position. I'm so sorry.
6 MS. SAND: Mrs. Crisp, you don't have to
7 reveal the identity of the other cities. Just answer
8 yes or no.
9 And Mr. Edwards or Ms. Hamilton, if you
10 could repeat the question.
11 (Question was read back.)
12 THE WITNESS: I don't feel comfortable
13 answering that question. I'm sorry.
14 BY MR. EDWARDS:
15 Q. In connection with the administrative appeal
16 that you're being deposed for, did the City of Renton
17 ask TRS to produce to the City of Renton TRS's entire
18 audit file for the TracFone audit?
19 A. Most likely, yes.
20 Q. What do you understand an audit file to consist
21 of?
22 A. I'm learning that this actually includes things
23 that the -- that the taxpayer already has in possession.
24 But I -- I didn't understand that at the time.
25 Q. Do you understand the audit file to consist of
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 36
1 the final and all draft schedules that were prepared in
2 connection with the audit?
3 A. Yes.
4 Could you repeat that question one more time?
5 MR. EDWARDS: Can you read the question
6 back.
7 THE WITNESS: Huh?
8 MR. EDWARDS: I'm asking the court reporter
9 to read the question back.
10 (Question was read back.)
11 THE WITNESS: I think I'm starting to
12 understand that now. The request seemed unreasonable to
13 me at the time, because these are just erroneous
14 information that would confuse the audit. But I should
15 have said okay and sent them right way, as I'm starting
16 to understand what -- what -- how the legal system
17 works. I really thought it was illogical, but I guess
18 the rules were set up differently than I understood.
19 BY MR. EDWARDS:
20 Q. Let's stick with the schedules for now. How
21 many different versions of draft schedules were prepared
22 by TRS in connection with the Renton audit of TracFone?
23 A. I know I sent them to you last week. Did you
24 receive them?
25 Q. Okay. I received an email on November 4th at
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 37
1 10:32 p.m. that contained seven files, and the email
2 read: Scott, Kari let us know that you wanted to look
3 at prior schedules. See attached.
4 A. Uh-huh.
5 Q. If you can't read the .ods files with your
6 software, you can download LibreOffice off the Internet.
7 Let us know if you have any questions. Mike.
8 Is that the email that you're referring to?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did you draft that email?
11 A. I -- yeah, I drafted it, gave it to Mike. He
12 went through it, said, Okay, and he signed it and sent
13 it.
14 Q. Okay. So are the seven files that were attached
15 to that email all of the files that were -- all of the
16 schedules that were prepared, both the drafts and final?
17 A. They're all the ones that we have on file in the
18 file. With -- there's a lot of them. And there was one
19 file I didn't send you. It has the same name as the
20 one, the final -- the final draft. And we looked into
21 this later. It actually had more interest on it than
22 the one that was sent for the final audit papers. That
23 I didn't send to you because I didn't realize it was
24 there. I thought it was the same one you had already
25 received. But we've done some research since then.
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 38
1 Turns out that that was the number that -- that Mike
2 remembered. He is good at remembering numbers. And so
3 we can send you a copy of that too if you like, but we
4 just recently figured out that -- and we renamed it so
5 that it would be not the same name as the one that was
6 sent with audit papers. You have less interest on -- on
7 the one that we -- we sent with the tax assessment.
8 Q. We will get to those schedules a little bit
9 later. Based on the email, I made the assumption -- and
10 I'm asking you to tell me whether my assumption was
11 correct or not -- that all of the schedules were
12 prepared using the software program LibreOffice. Is
13 that correct?
14 A. We -- yeah, we don't have Microsoft Office on
15 our computers. We use LibreOffice, but we can save them
16 as Excel files. So some of them were saved as
17 LibreOffice files, the early ones. And then as we
18 started getting to the point where we thought it was
19 accurate enough to start sending out, we saved it as an
20 Excel file. So that's why it had that name, you know,
21 Excel in there to remind us that this -- these have been
22 saved as Excel files.
23 Q. Okay. I'm going to move back to the topic of
24 the request for producing the entire audit file and --
25 and exploring what are the component parts of an audit
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 39
1 file. We've talked about the schedules. What about
2 data that is received from the taxpayer, is that part of
3 the audit file as well?
4 A. I'm not an expert on what an audit file is, but
5 if I had to -- to answer out of my best impression from
6 what's been told me, I would say yes.
7 Q. Did TRS provide to the City of Renton all of the
8 data that had been provided to TRS by TracFone?
9 A. I know I didn't do it, but I have a memory of
10 Mike sending a plethora of -- of things like that to --
11 to the City. So you didn't receive it as part of the
12 audit file?
13 Q. Well, I'm going to be asking you some questions
14 later that reflect what we did and didn't receive.
15 A. Okay.
16 Q. Can you describe the sales data that TRS
17 received from TracFone?
18 A. They were data that was specific to ZIP Codes.
19 I checked especially the earlier ones, but in some of
20 the later -- little bit later dated ones, and they did
21 not have enhanced ZIP Code. They were simply ZIP Code.
22 They gave us -- I'm working from memory here. You had
23 billing sales, Internet sales which were not [distorted
24 audio]. They were sales made over the Internet. They
25 were all direct sales, not sales made through a
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 40
1 retailer, retail store, just direct sales. They also
2 came with a disclaimer saying that TracFone does not owe
3 any tax for their -- in -- in the City of Renton.
4 Let's see, there was -- what else. You have
5 data, billing, platform it's called. There might have
6 been three different... demarcations for this audit. We
7 were expecting to get some page plus or something, but
8 those weren't operated. And -- and they were supposed
9 to be bunched together with all the different TracFone
10 companies.
11 Q. What do you mean by "all the different TracFone
12 companies"?
13 A. TracFone operates under quite a few different
14 names. They're not just plain old TracFone, but they
15 might be -- and I can't remember the other names. But
16 there are subsidiaries, you know, groups of -- not
17 subsid- -- there are several different companies that
18 they -- they sell under, company names that they sell.
19 So this was supposed to be all the direct sales for all
20 of those companies. But that it doesn't say that on the
21 data that was in the email exchanges.
22 Q. The emails that have not yet been produced?
23 A. The ones that you have in your possession, but
24 we haven't sent them to you, yes.
25 Q. How were the ZIP Codes identified for which TRS
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 41
1 requested sales data?
2 A. I can't remember this definitively. I believe
3 we got them both off the Internet and checked with
4 Renton that they were okay, but I can't tell you
5 absolute sure that's the process we went through.
6 Q. Who was the person who went through the process
7 to identify the ZIP Codes?
8 A. I remember Mike working on that. I probably
9 checked it. We like to have double-checking, whichever
10 one of us does the work.
11 Q. Do you create any type of record of what you
12 looked at that -- to reflect the checking and
13 double-checking that had been performed?
14 A. It might be in the email record with Renton,
15 because they're the ones that know the most about their
16 ZIP Codes. Also if you go online, you can find out what
17 ZIP Codes intersect with Renton. There's whole
18 companies, several of them competing with each other,
19 that -- that do that kind of analysis.
20 Q. When you went online and looked at stuff on the
21 Internet, did you print out copies of what you found?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Do you have any way of knowing that if you --
24 whether the data that you looked at at the time would be
25 the same data that you would see if you looked at those
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 42
1 same websites today?
2 A. No, the... the -- there's no reason to change
3 the ZIP Codes. But I'm not an expert in what's going on
4 constantly.
5 Q. Who located the websites that had ZIP Code data?
6 A. That would be me.
7 Q. You said there are multiple different sites that
8 have that type of data. How many different sites did
9 you look at?
10 A. Probably at least three.
11 Q. Do you recall what those three different sites
12 were?
13 A. No, huh-uh. One of them is probably listed when
14 we did the populations probably on the Excel file. The
15 one we got populations from, population figures from
16 would also have the ZIP Codes listed as Renton ZIP
17 Codes. Most likely we got the list of ZIP Codes from
18 Renton though. And that would be in the email file
19 that -- that we sent you, if so.
20 Q. And if Renton didn't provide you with a list of
21 ZIP Codes, how did you determine the list of ZIP Codes
22 to ask TracFone for?
23 A. From those websites.
24 Q. And you were the one that conducted that
25 Internet research?
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 43
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And you created no record of the research that
3 you performed other than whatever is reflected on the
4 face of the Excel schedules?
5 A. Yeah, I think you've noticed that it's not our
6 practice to write things down and transfer them again.
7 We would have a -- a... an Excel file, you know, for the
8 schedules and we would look things up and we would write
9 them on that file right straight from our research to
10 our Excel spreadsheet or LibreOffice spreadsheet. It
11 would just go directly on there. And if we wanted to
12 double-check, we would open that spreadsheet and compare
13 it to some new information, whether it was from Renton
14 or another site, to make sure it was accurate. There
15 would be no -- no scratch pad there.
16 I mean, we might have -- sometimes I'll have
17 scratch paper and I'll just scratch a number down, but
18 it's not something that I could share and save. It's
19 something that would be worth saving if it's not even
20 labeled what it is.
21 Q. Continuing on with the question of what a audit
22 file consists of. Would it consist of any contracts
23 received from the taxpayer relevant to the business
24 that's being audited?
25 A. Yes.
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 44
1 Q. Did TRS request any contracts from TracFone
2 during the course of its audit?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Do you understand an audit file to include the
5 research performed by the auditor in conducting the
6 audit?
7 A. Only if it's written down. You can't contain
8 what went into our heads.
9 Q. Are there any other categories of records that
10 we have not yet talked about that you would consider to
11 be part of an audit file?
12 A. Not that I can think of.
13 MR. EDWARDS: We've been going for about an
14 hour and nearly 20 minutes here. This is probably a
15 good time for a short break for everybody. And
16 Mrs. Crisp and Kari, I leave it to you whether this
17 should be a five-minute or ten-minute break.
18 MS. SAND: What would you prefer, Tamara,
19 five or ten minutes?
20 THE WITNESS: Oh, five or ten, I didn't hear
21 that. Whatever works. Would you like five -- oh, let's
22 do ten.
23 MR. EDWARDS: Okay. So let's break for
24 five -- for ten minutes.
25 THE WITNESS: Mr. Edwards.
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 45
1 MR. EDWARDS: Yes.
2 THE WITNESS: Are you -- are you through
3 with number 6?
4 MR. EDWARDS: Yes, I am.
5 THE WITNESS: Okay. All right.
6 MS. SAND: Resume at 10:50?
7 MR. EDWARDS: Well, it's 10:49 right now,
8 so --
9 MS. SAND: Oh, I'm sorry. Resume at 11:00?
10 MR. EDWARDS: Yeah, why don't we resume at
11 11:00.
12 (A break was taken
13 from 10:49 a.m. to 11:02 a.m.)
14 (Whereupon, Mr. Degginger leaves the proceedings.)
15 BY MR. EDWARDS:
16 Q. Ms. Crisp, before the break you had testified
17 that you had reviewed at least three different websites
18 that had ZIP Code data relating to Renton. How did you
19 determine which website to use for the audit schedules?
20 A. It's pretty important that they would be on the
21 same page. They'd lose significant credibility if they
22 weren't the same. So if I found that they weren't
23 agreeing, I would have definitely checked with Renton.
24 I could have sworn I checked with Renton, but I
25 didn't -- I didn't even think of researching that for
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 46
1 you before the deposition, so I'm sorry, I can't give
2 you a more firm response on that.
3 Q. Yeah, I guess I'm not sure that you understood
4 the question that I asked.
5 A. Okay.
6 Q. You looked at three different websites and each
7 of those three websites had data about --
8 (Whereupon, Mr. Degginger joins the proceedings.)
9 BY MR. EDWARDS:
10 Q. -- ZIP Code population. How did you decide
11 which of the three different websites would be the one
12 that you would use? What made you choose website A over
13 website B or C?
14 A. No, they should all be the same. They shouldn't
15 be a big disparity. I mean, you know, it's a simple
16 fact, these ZIP Codes have populations in Renton.
17 Q. Let me move now to Exhibit 12 from Mr. Crisp's
18 deposition.
19 A. Okay.
20 Q. Can you put that in front of you. And that was
21 Bates number 634 on the bottom of it as the first page
22 of that exhibit. Do you have Exhibit 12 in front of
23 you?
24 A. Uh-huh.
25 Q. Can you describe Exhibit 12 for me?
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 47
1 A. Looks like it's an email from TRS sent to Jan
2 Hawn regarding the TracFone schedules in June 30th,
3 2017.
4 Q. Is this the first set of draft schedules that
5 TRS shared with the City of Renton?
6 A. (Reviews exhibit.)
7 It should have been, yeah.
8 Q. The... I notice the email is signed "Mike" at
9 the bottom. Did you participate in drafting this email?
10 A. Yes. The whole how to read the schedules part I
11 did.
12 Q. And I notice the first two lines and the last
13 two paragraphs and the signature block appear to be in a
14 different typeface --
15 A. Uh-huh.
16 Q. -- the main body of the email. Does that
17 reflect the difference in authorship of the component
18 parts of the email?
19 A. No, that's very random.
20 Q. The -- at the top it reflects that there are two
21 attachments. The first one is referred to as
22 ExcelPrelimRenton Tracfone.xls. Do you see that?
23 A. Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
24 Q. Is that the name of the -- of the audit schedule
25 file saved in Excel format?
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 48
1 A. I would think this would be the same. You know,
2 if you had asked me this question outside of this venue,
3 I would double-check for you, but they have the same
4 name. The problem is that when we improve a schedule,
5 sometimes we start a new schedule so that there's a
6 track record as of what the schedule used to be.
7 Sometimes we just improve the schedule. So my
8 understanding is that this would be -- would be exactly
9 the same as the other one of its name that I sent you.
10 Q. And this -- the second document is titled Renton
11 TracFone Methodology.doc?
12 A. Uh-huh.
13 Q. That's a Word document that is the narrative
14 description of how the schedules were prepared; is that
15 correct?
16 A. Yeah, should have been.
17 Q. Okay. So if we look at the third page of
18 exhibit --
19 A. Can I ask you, did you get copies of these
20 from -- from Renton when they did the --
21 (Inaudible due to crosstalk.)
22 BY MR. EDWARDS:
23 Q. Yes, these were produced by Renton --
24 A. Okay.
25 (Inaudible due to crosstalk.)
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 49
1 BY MR. EDWARDS:
2 Q. You see at the bottom --
3 A. You have them.
4 Q. -- those numberings, those were placed on there
5 by Renton before they were produced to us. So... And
6 so the -- you'll notice that the -- the numbering is in
7 sequence. So you got 634 and 635 is the email, 636 --
8 A. Oh, and then --
9 (Inaudible due to crosstalk.)
10 THE WITNESS: -- they all came together.
11 BY MR. EDWARDS:
12 Q. -- the printout of the Word document that is
13 titled Renton TracFone Methodology.doc in the
14 attachments, and I'm asking you to confirm whether that
15 appears to be correct.
16 A. One more time?
17 Q. I'm asking you to confirm that the -- that the
18 pages that are numbered 636 through 638 appear to be the
19 attachment that's referred to as Renton TracFone
20 Methodology.doc.
21 A. (Reviews exhibit.)
22 Yeah, I would think that this is... is the one,
23 yeah.
24 Q. And then it is also my belief that the following
25 pages that are Bates numbered 639 through 642 are an
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 50
1 effort to print out the file that was attached that was
2 titled ExcelPrelimRenton Tracfone.xls. Does that appear
3 to be potentially correct?
4 A. Yeah, definitely corrupted. I believe that
5 didn't happen with us. We -- we sent good, you know...
6 good schedules to them.
7 (Inaudible due to crosstalk.)
8 BY MR. EDWARDS:
9 Q. I'm just asking to confirm that that appears to
10 be what -- what was printed out here.
11 A. Okay, yes.
12 Q. Okay. So I want to direct your attention --
13 well, I guess maybe first of all, yeah, let's focus on
14 the methodology that is pages 637 or 636 through 638.
15 Did you draft that document? Did you draft the
16 methodology?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. I -- I'd like to direct your attention to the
19 second paragraph that has the heading Why sales and not
20 usage is used in the estimate. Do you see that?
21 A. Uh-huh.
22 Q. So that it begins, "While it is true that
23 taxation of this prepaid phone activity is properly owed
24 on usage, not sales, usage figures are not available
25 from TracFone..." Do you see that?
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 51
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. How did you make the determination that taxation
3 of this prepaid phone activity is properly owed on
4 usage?
5 A. I think that this is one misunderstanding that I
6 was under for this -- this audit, that I had been doing
7 a lot of post-paid audits that the MTSA refers to
8 sourcing using usage, and I hadn't not until near the
9 end of the audit really gotten ahold of the fact that
10 the MTSA precludes -- you know, does not speak to
11 sourcing of prepaid.
12 But I need to point out this is not a material
13 error since usage wasn't the proper thing. At the same
14 time I never used usage. We never got usage data. So
15 yes, this is an error in understanding that was
16 corrected later and never had effect on the audit papers
17 or the -- the audit results, the assessment. It simply
18 was -- it was the wrong way to look at it.
19 I -- once I realized that, I tried to correct --
20 correct this and we updated the methodology. The one
21 that was sent to TracFone was better. I wish I had just
22 taken "usage" out completely, because apparently
23 confused you. But I'd like to assure you, the audit was
24 not done based on usage. It did not affect the audit at
25 all.
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 52
1 Q. Let me move up to the first paragraph,
2 Unusual -- or Usual data is not collected by TracFone.
3 And it starts, "We have found that typically, for
4 prepaid telephone UUT taxes..." Do you see that?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. What -- what does UUT stand for?
7 A. I think I was -- I meant to say utility.
8 Q. Is it -- do you -- did you not mean to say
9 utility usage taxes, that's why there are two Us there?
10 A. (Reviews exhibit.)
11 I can't say. I don't remember why I put UUT. I
12 haven't used this term for a long time.
13 Q. How did you come up with the term?
14 A. Can't remember.
15 Q. Is it based on your experience conducting
16 telephone utility tax audits?
17 A. Sorry, I just -- I can't even defend that term.
18 I don't even remember what it stands for.
19 Q. If we -- if we ignore the term, we still have
20 the content that says: We have found that typically,
21 for prepaid telephone, a company collects usage
22 information for the entire state.
23 What's the basis of -- of that statement?
24 What's the factual foundation for it?
25 A. And frankly, since writing this, I -- I think I
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 53
1 overstated the case of being typically. Different
2 companies, they will -- they have different ways of
3 estimating their -- their prepaid. And though I've seen
4 this -- this method, I've seen other methods. They're
5 very careful with how they do it. One company made me
6 so nervous I delete it as soon as I looked at it and
7 decided it wasn't good enough.
8 The fact is that the telephone companies, when
9 they do prepaid, they pay taxes on it. They know
10 they're telephone companies. They know they owe the
11 utility taxes.
12 Q. Which telephone companies are you referring to?
13 A. I can't say. I can't say because they're --
14 Q. How do I know the factual foundation for what
15 you're saying is true?
16 A. You know what, you can't know it. But fact is
17 it's -- it's... it's -- it doesn't affect the audit
18 assessment. It doesn't affect the tax schedules. And
19 it doesn't affect whether TracFone is taxable or not.
20 Q. What is your definition of a telephone company?
21 A. Well, I get it straight from --
22 Q. I'm not asking you to look at a document. I'm
23 asking you to tell me.
24 A. Well, it really -- what really matters is, is
25 TracFone a telephone company per the code. You know, if
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 54
1 they're not, you know, then they're not taxable, but if
2 they are, they are. And the code says that TracFone
3 telephone business. Telephone business means the
4 business of providing network telephone service, and
5 network telephone service means that providing any
6 person of access to a telephone network. And that's
7 what TracFone does. That's why they're so popular.
8 Q. Please describe for me what you just read from.
9 A. What that's? This is the --
10 Q. Tell me what you just read from.
11 A. RCW 82.16.010. Telephone business is in point
12 III. And network telephone service is point double I.
13 Q. I'd like to go back to that second page or
14 second paragraph, the last sentence. It says, "We would
15 like to stress here that taxes are not being levied on
16 sales, but rather sales are being used as a method to
17 estimate usage." Do you see that?
18 A. Yeah, I understand that you got a copy of the
19 methodology or TracFone got a copy of the methodology
20 with the... with a much improved methodology. When --
21 when we sent the assessment, and we also sent it to them
22 directly, these words were not in there.
23 Q. Well, we will get to whether or not that
24 statement is true later.
25 A. Yes, but -- but the issue is this. This -- this
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 55
1 statement that you just asked me about was removed from
2 the methodology.
3 Q. When was it removed from the methodology and
4 what --
5 A. Previous to the 20 -- previous to sending it to
6 TracFone I believe. So...
7 Q. What is the basis of that brief?
8 A. I changed it because I decided that, you know, I
9 realized that this was not correct. And when we do
10 audits, you know, you put something down and then you
11 check it. And if it's wrong, you improve it. You do
12 everything you can to send something quality to taxpayer
13 so they're not confused. And if the taxpayer comes up
14 with a reason that there's a problem, then we change it
15 with respect to their -- their -- their complaint
16 because we want to put out the best -- best thing that
17 we can. And -- and we're always improving.
18 Q. The question is: Did you italicize that last
19 phrase to emphasize it?
20 A. I italicized it here. I removed it later.
21 Q. We're not asking you about what you did later.
22 I'll get to what you did later --
23 A. Okay.
24 Q. -- when you did it and what triggered your doing
25 it.
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 56
1 A. Okay.
2 Q. The... Did Mr. Crisp review this before it went
3 to Renton?
4 A. I believe he did.
5 Q. Did he call out the fact that the tax is not a
6 utility usage tax and it is not imposed on usage?
7 A. No, he didn't.
8 Q. Okay.
9 You sent it to Renton in June of -- on June 30th
10 of 2017. Did Renton make any comment about the -- the
11 methodology that you sent to them?
12 A. No, they did not.
13 Q. I'm going to move down now to the fourth
14 paragraph that -- that has an indent here. It starts,
15 Estimation of non-direct sales, and has in parentheses,
16 sold through outside carriers.
17 Do you see that?
18 A. Yes, and I would like to apologize for the use
19 of the word "carriers". It's one -- we're supposed to
20 call them retail stores.
21 Q. And did you learn that from Mr. Ashpaugh --
22 A. Yeah, he --
23 Q. -- in conversation with him last week?
24 A. Because the word "carrier," you know, I was
25 using it generically. It's very confusing for an audit
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 57
1 that's tel- -- you know, a telecommunications audit.
2 The word carrier's talking about the network providers,
3 the people who, you know, like the -- the TracFone has
4 business agreements to use their -- their network
5 services. So it was wrong. I meant to use the word
6 "carriers".
7 Q. Again, Mr. Crisp reviewed this before it went to
8 Renton; is that correct?
9 A. I believe so.
10 Q. Okay. Mr. Crisp had significant experience at
11 the City of Tacoma conducting audits, including
12 telephone utility audits?
13 A. He conducted -- successfully conducted many
14 telephone utility audits and they -- they went through
15 just fine, so...
16 Q. And he didn't --
17 (Inaudible due to crosstalk.)
18 THE WITNESS: This... this was not a perfect
19 document, but it got the job done.
20 BY MR. EDWARDS:
21 Q. Okay. Mr. Crisp didn't have any concerns with
22 the phrase "outside carriers"; is that correct?
23 A. He was probably thinking like I was. These are
24 people who carry your cards. They're not carriers for
25 telecommunications terminology.
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 58
1 Q. Did the City of Renton ask any questions about
2 the use of the phrase "outside carriers"?
3 A. No.
4 Q. So the use of the phrase "outside carriers" only
5 became an issue after the City of Renton hired an expert
6 witness, and that was the first person on Renton's side
7 to raise a question about the use of the phrase "outside
8 carriers"?
9 A. Apparently, because I think they knew that we
10 were talking about the retail stores here. It was a
11 unfortunate choice of terms meant in the most generic
12 way and not specific to this [distorted audio].
13 Q. The very next line says: In order to estimate
14 the amount of non-direct sales (and thus usage) that the
15 City collects from -- or that the company collects from
16 city customers...
17 Do you see that language?
18 A. "That the company collects from city customers,"
19 yes. Once again, this was done with the erroneous idea
20 that we needed usage, and the prepaids don't -- don't
21 estimate on usage. So I apologize again.
22 Q. Let me --
23 (Inaudible due to crosstalk.)
24 BY MR. EDWARDS:
25 Q. I'm not asking for your apologies. I'm just
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 59
1 trying to get the facts here.
2 A. Uh-huh.
3 Q. So where did the term "non-direct sales" come
4 from?
5 A. I -- I came up with it to -- to describe what
6 happened. It's my position as an auditor that what's
7 going on when you -- when you have the retail stores
8 carry your cards and sell your cards, that you're not
9 selling network telephone services, you're selling a
10 card that allows them to -- your customers, TracFone's
11 customers, to hook up with TracFone and then TracFone
12 hooks them up to the net -- network services that makes
13 them the telephone company. So...
14 Q. What's -- what's the basis for that -- for your
15 position that, as an auditor, you made up that term to
16 describe what you just described?
17 A. Oh, I'd rather hear that one again.
18 MR. EDWARDS: Can you read back her -- the
19 first part of her lengthy answer there.
20 (Portion of the answer was read back.)
21 MR. EDWARDS: You can stop right there.
22 BY MR. EDWARDS:
23 Q. So the term "non-direct sales" is a term that
24 you made up in your capacity as an auditor; am I correct
25 in understanding that?
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 60
1 A. Sure.
2 Q. And it was used for the first time in your -- in
3 your write-up of the TracFone assessment?
4 A. Okay. That's a industry-specific term,
5 "assessment".
6 Q. All right. Non-direct --
7 A. Huh.
8 Q. It's -- is "non-direct" an industry-specific
9 term or is it a term you made up?
10 A. The word "assessment" is an auditing term that
11 means the final -- final audit papers. So you probably
12 just mean that it -- when I was working on this -- this
13 assessment, but not the assessment itself when you're
14 asking that question?
15 Q. Is the TracFone audit the first time that you
16 made up the term "non-direct sales"?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. So it's a term that you made up to reflect the
19 legal position that you took about how the City of
20 Renton's tax code applies to TracFone's business; is
21 that correct?
22 A. Can you rephrase that question, because I can't
23 exactly say yes. I can kind of say yes to that, but...
24 I could say I made up the term to describe the process
25 that TracFone uses to sell to their customers when they
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 61
1 use the cards in the retail store as a go-between.
2 Q. Why did you make up that terminology? How does
3 it relate to -- or actually, let me -- why did you make
4 up that term?
5 A. Because my understanding as an auditor of what's
6 going on, I mean, the direct sales, not a problem,
7 you're selling from TracFone to the customer. That's
8 pretty direct; right?
9 But when you're talking about a retail sale,
10 you -- you don't get hooked up with your customer until
11 after the retailer sells the cards that they -- that
12 they sell in -- on behalf of TracFone. So it seemed
13 like there was a extra step there in getting you hooked
14 up to your customer.
15 Q. What do you mean by "hooked up"?
16 A. Well, the... Telecommunications can only take
17 place when -- when there's access to the network
18 telephone services.
19 Q. How do you know that?
20 A. TracFone -- the customer has to be hooked up
21 with TracFone, become a true TracFone customer before
22 they can access the telecommunications that you provide
23 access to. So...
24 Q. How did you make that determination?
25 A. Oh, I didn't hear your question.
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 62
1 Q. How did you make that determination?
2 A. I mean, these things are generally known. You
3 don't need a law degree or an engineering degree to know
4 that if you buy a TracFone card, it's worthless until
5 somebody hooks -- connects you to TracFone. I haven't
6 actually bought any TracFone service or cards, but we
7 did -- I bought a different carrier -- not carrier. A
8 different brand that was not TracFone for my daughter
9 one time, and we bought a card and we bought a phone at
10 a retailer and -- and we were hooked up to the -- the
11 service that we had bought the card with their name all
12 over it. It's the same thing that TracFone does.
13 Q. Does the term --
14 (Inaudible due to crosstalk.)
15 THE WITNESS: -- customer, no.
16 BY MR. EDWARDS:
17 Q. Is the term "hooked up" used in the Renton
18 utility tax code?
19 A. I -- once again, I'm using generic terms that
20 just describe... You have to be connected to TracFone
21 to use your phones, and it doesn't matter whether it's
22 done through a card or a telephone call. TracFone is
23 your telephone company.
24 Q. How do you make that determination? What's the
25 factual basis for that statement?
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 63
1 A. I'm sorry, it's -- it feels like you're asking
2 me how do you know water is wet.
3 Q. Okay. You know that TracFone is a telephone
4 company because you know that water is wet?
5 A. No, I'm saying that I can't describe something
6 that I already -- that's obvious that -- that you are
7 providing access to a telephone network. All your
8 customers know that. They -- they wouldn't pay you
9 anything --
10 Q. How many TracFone customers did you interview?
11 A. (Laughter). All right.
12 Q. How do you know what -- what you allege TracFone
13 customers do or don't know?
14 A. So what you're telling me is that you don't --
15 Q. I'm asking you a question. How do you know it?
16 How -- you've told me under oath that TracFone customers
17 know that TracFone is their telephone company. How do
18 you know that -- that fact?
19 A. I think I described -- I've answered that
20 question already. I really believe I have.
21 Q. Is the term "non-direct" a term that you
22 discussed with Mr. Ashpaugh?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Going back to the same sentence that -- or
25 phrase "the company collects from city customers". I
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 64
1 assume "company" is referring to TracFone?
2 A. (Reviews exhibit.)
3 Yeah.
4 Q. What do you mean collects -- that TracFone
5 collects from city customers?
6 A. (Reviews exhibit.)
7 (Sotto voce comments.)
8 I think this is a -- just the sentence is pretty
9 much just trying to say these are the revenues that
10 TracFone receives with respect to these... these sales
11 through the retail stores that they make. We're just
12 talking about estimating the revenue for these sales.
13 Q. And when somebody walks into a Walmart or a
14 Target or a Safeway or wherever it is where there are
15 TracFone cards available for sale, and they make a
16 purchase at that retail store --
17 A. Uh-huh.
18 Q. -- who are they paying?
19 A. I believe they're paying the retail stores.
20 The -- the revenue is made at the point of... you know,
21 with respect to between the retail store and TracFone,
22 not at the point of sale to the customer.
23 Q. I don't understand what you mean by that
24 statement.
25 A. TracFone makes some money when they sell the
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 65
1 cards to the store, but it's really based on the fact
2 that they will receive a customer when that card is
3 sold. So that's why it... Yeah. So it's my
4 understanding that they make the money when they sell
5 the cards or maybe when -- whenever they're hooked up,
6 but somehow the retail store gets that money, a good
7 portion of that money back to TracFone, because all
8 they're doing is carrying, you know -- well, they carry
9 phones, accessories and cards, according to a wholesale
10 agreement. That's all they carry. The cards are
11 plastic. They have TracFone's name all over them. Then
12 they sell them to a customer. And then the customer is
13 hooked up -- and I know you don't like that term, I wish
14 I could come up with one that you liked -- to TracFone's
15 services.
16 Q. How did you learn about how TracFone's sales to
17 wholesale customers function?
18 A. I'm part of the general public. We watch
19 your -- your -- sorry, I keep calling you "you". You're
20 actually just their lawyer. But we watch TracFone's
21 commercials. We... we can go to their website and find
22 out how to -- how to get a phone. People start out
23 with -- they start out this way, and this is, like, I
24 can speak to this as an auditor, I'm going to look at it
25 a little more gut level and a little less technically.
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 66
1 But somebody wants a telephone. We know because we have
2 commercials and TracFone's stuff is all over the stores
3 that we can just walk in and buy a phone. Now you can
4 bring your own. I don't know if that's true during the
5 audit. And we can buy a card, and then we can use that
6 card to become TracFone customer.
7 It's a extra step in the process, but in the end
8 we're a TracFone customer. That's how we get our
9 telephone. If I wanted to become a TracFone customer, I
10 know that they could provide telephone service for me,
11 access they say to -- to all sorts of wonderful, you
12 know, network services, one of the biggest in -- in the
13 country that they provide through their business
14 agreements with these other -- these carriers.
15 Q. Mrs. Crisp, I'm going to have to cut you off
16 here.
17 A. Okay.
18 Q. You are not the lawyer and the advocate for the
19 City of Renton here. I'm not asking you to be giving
20 speeches --
21 A. (Laughter).
22 Q. -- or arguing for your position. I'm asking you
23 factual questions.
24 A. Uh-huh.
25 Q. I'm asking you what facts you know. I'm not
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 67
1 asking you to tell me about what you -- you know, and
2 I'm trying to be clear and understand what in your role
3 or -- and maybe let me stop after having made that
4 admonition and move to a question.
5 When did you become an auditor for TRS?
6 A. Probably around 2012.
7 Q. What role do you perform in your capacity as an
8 auditor for TRS? What are your responsibilities as an
9 auditor?
10 A. I... Well, one of the first things I did
11 probably before 2012 was I -- I designed the schedules
12 that we use that we -- they were a great improvement on
13 the ones that we were using before I -- I was given that
14 job. I -- I do... Let's see.
15 Okay. I am assigned different portions of
16 audits, some of them the major portion. I read up on
17 the code. I interact with the taxpayer. I ask them
18 for -- for information about their -- what their books
19 hold that is needed for the audit. Answer their
20 questions. And everything though, you know, I have --
21 have run virtually everything through Mike. I... if I
22 find out that there's -- I've done something wrong, I
23 improve it, because I -- and if the taxpayer's unhappy
24 about something, I do what I can to make them
25 comfortable and I try to take into account their
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 68
1 objections and -- and research them.
2 I think on this usage thing, I -- I took too
3 long to do that. And it just slipped by the cities, it
4 slipped by Mike, and we finally got it, you know, near
5 the end of the audit what -- how I was looking at it
6 wrong. So I -- I don't stand by this first methodology.
7 It's -- it just -- it has that wrong assumption. But we
8 fixed it and -- and the wrong assumption did not affect
9 the assessment at all. The assessment's good.
10 Q. I'll move to the second page of the -- of the
11 methodology, Bates number 637. Do you see the section
12 that's headed Finding population proportion?
13 A. Uh-huh.
14 Q. And about the middle of the way it says: City
15 populations are available yearly, but we needed to use
16 census years in order to get the ZIP -- ZIP Code
17 population.
18 Do you see that?
19 A. Yeah.
20 Q. Do you recall that methodology for determining
21 the population proportion?
22 A. I believe so. As you know, we -- we improved on
23 this later. We found out that Renton had really good
24 numbers, and we also found out that the online people
25 that we got the ZIP Codes from had estimated each year
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 69
1 separately by using a -- you know, they make the
2 populations grow in even increments between censuses, so
3 we got way better numbers on that for the ZIP Codes than
4 just going to the -- the census year.
5 This -- this audit was -- is really good because
6 it has -- has in the final analysis, it has really great
7 populations from -- directly from Renton's comprehensive
8 annual financial report. And then we also got the
9 censuses to -- to be estimated how much it grew per year
10 based on the two censuses, so we had really good numbers
11 by the end of the audit and this --
12 Q. I'm not asking you about the end of the audit.
13 I'm asking you about this document.
14 A. Okay.
15 Q. Okay. You recall the methodology that you used
16 here; correct?
17 A. Yeah.
18 Q. Do you recall which website you used to locate
19 city population data yearly?
20 A. No, I don't remember.
21 Q. Do you recall which website you used for
22 estimated ZIP Code data?
23 A. No, but if you -- if you looked at the schedules
24 that we sent with this, those websites are on those
25 schedules so that TracFone would be able to look that
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 70
1 up, you know, if we sent -- sent this. But since we
2 improved it, I don't believe we did send it. We changed
3 the methodology and improved it to get rid of a lot of
4 the usage things from going on, and we improved the
5 population numbers, so -- but if you have -- if --
6 hopefully we sent you an uncorrupted version of this...
7 this spreadsheet.
8 Q. I -- I would like to --
9 (Inaudible due to crosstalk.)
10 THE WITNESS: -- in answer to your question.
11 BY MR. EDWARDS:
12 Q. That's exactly where I'm going to go.
13 A. Okay. So that -- that should be on the
14 spreadsheet.
15 Q. So I am going to share my screen now. And I
16 can -- I can try to email this note as well. What I am
17 going to show is the -- the file that you sent me on --
18 in that email of November 5th that we talked about that
19 was titled ExcelPrelimRenton Tracfone.xls. And I have
20 opened it in the LibreOffice software.
21 A. Okay. Great.
22 Q. Now, if I have done things correctly, you are
23 now able to see that -- that file?
24 A. Okay. Yes.
25 Q. Okay. So there are a number of tabs in the
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 71
1 file, and currently the tab titled Summary Sheet is --
2 is displaying. Do you see that?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And it shows an amount of tax for each calendar
5 year with a total over in column M; is that correct?
6 A. I believe so. I can't see column M because your
7 pictures are --
8 Q. Is it small? Let me see if I blow this up, is
9 that easier for -- oh, now it becomes -- that's way too
10 big. Hold on.
11 MS. SAND: So one thing that might work,
12 Mrs. Crisp, is if you take your device that you're
13 viewing and sometimes you can pinch it with your fingers
14 to make it larger --
15 THE WITNESS: Oh.
16 MS. SAND: -- and easier to read. I'm not
17 sure if that will work on your device. It works on
18 some -- it depends if it's a touchscreen.
19 THE WITNESS: Maybe I could -- I'm going to
20 see if I can --
21 BY MR. EDWARDS:
22 Q. Can you see what I'm showing here on the summary
23 sheet where there's the total tax amount of $142,153.42?
24 A. I can get everything except the dollars and
25 cents. A hundred forty-two thousand one five something,
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 72
1 so that's close enough; right? I think I would make it
2 smaller then. Okay, is that good enough?
3 Q. As long as you can see what I'm looking at.
4 That's the key thing.
5 Then you'll see across the bottom there are
6 three other tabs?
7 A. Uh-huh.
8 Q. One of those tabs says Unreported Revenue Data?
9 A. Uh-huh.
10 Q. I'm going to click on that tab.
11 A. Uh-huh.
12 Q. And is this all familiar to you?
13 A. Uh-huh.
14 Q. Okay. And if I scroll over, I am now in columns
15 U and V -- U, V and W. And column U there is data under
16 the height -- the heading Internet Sales?
17 A. Uh-huh.
18 Q. And column V there is data under the -- the
19 column -- the heading Billing Platform Sales. And then
20 in column W there are dates starting with January 7 of
21 2007. Do you see that?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Okay.
24 Am I correct in understanding that the data in
25 columns U and V is sales data by ZIP Code that was
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 73
1 provided to TRS by TracFone?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And that data was provided monthly, and so the
4 month and year for which that data was reported is
5 reflected in column W?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Okay. And so if we go down to, it looks like,
8 row 21, which shows March of 2008 --
9 A. Uh-huh.
10 Q. -- reflecting Internet sales of $6,063.98, and
11 billing platform sales of $277.63?
12 A. Uh-huh.
13 Q. You see that? So this was the raw data that the
14 schedule then adjusts to come up with the taxable
15 amount; is that correct?
16 A. Right.
17 Q. Okay.
18 And then if we go over, I am now down on showing
19 in the screen basically rows 30 through 41. Do you see
20 that? And particularly up in column -- in K 31 it says:
21 Population of Renton 2010?
22 A. Uh-huh.
23 Q. Where did that number come from?
24 A. You'll see down below you have...
25 www.zip-codes.com/zipcode. And then also
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 74
1 www.citydata.com.
2 Q. Okay. So is it the citydata.com website that
3 provided the information about the population of Renton
4 in --
5 A. Yeah, for this -- for this schedule and, as I
6 say, in the future we improved that by using actual
7 Renton data that got from the Renton report that they
8 published.
9 Q. Okay. Now this --
10 A. But at this point we were still using city data.
11 Q. If you can just limit your answer to my
12 question, please.
13 The -- the Renton population data for 2009
14 showing 62,002, that's a hard-coded number in your
15 schedule. Did you also get that number from
16 citydata.com?
17 A. With the population Renton, yeah, would have had
18 to come from -- I mean, I believe it was from
19 citydata.com. The -- and then the ZIP Code data would
20 have been zipcodedata.com [sic], but, you know, I --
21 that's -- that's what I believe I indicated here.
22 Q. So both the 2010 and 2009 Renton population data
23 came from the website citydata.com?
24 A. Let's see, how'd I get this. Population.
25 I am so cold. Kate, tell me if this -- having
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 75
1 this heater going makes it so you can't hear.
2 Q. I'm not hearing the heater.
3 A. Are we good? Okay. I'm really cold.
4 Okay. So we have population Renton, 2010.
5 Population 29. Yeah.
6 Q. Are you looking at the same --
7 A. No, wait. I did --
8 Q. -- file?
9 A. It's interesting that that's 2010. Okay, that
10 would make sense. But this is 2000, so how did we come
11 up with the 2.
12 Q. I'm looking at, in column K, rows 32 and 34.
13 A. Uh-huh.
14 Q. We're only talking about the Renton population
15 for the years 2010 and 2009. And as you'll see, both of
16 those cells have a number in there, not a formula.
17 Neither of those are --
18 (Inaudible due to crosstalk.)
19 BY MR. EDWARDS:
20 Q. -- numbers, they're numbers that somebody input
21 into this file; correct?
22 A. Yeah, it should have been -- this is why I don't
23 understand here, because it says 2010 for the
24 population -- oh, these are the ZIP populations; okay.
25 Q. I'll be getting to the ZIP.
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 76
1 (Inaudible due to crosstalk.)
2 BY MR. EDWARDS:
3 Q. I'm asking you to focus on the thing that I'm
4 asking you about. I will ask you about other parts of
5 this later.
6 A. Uh-huh. So --
7 (Inaudible due to crosstalk.)
8 THE WITNESS: -- that's an awful big jump
9 from 2010 to 29 [sic].
10 BY MR. EDWARDS:
11 Q. I'm not asking you to comment on it.
12 A. Okay.
13 Q. I'm asking you where it -- where the numbers
14 came from.
15 A. All right. My best memory, what seems to be
16 indicated here is that it came from that city data,
17 which I can't see the name of that site anymore.
18 Q. Okay.
19 A. And we didn't end up using this for the audit,
20 so what are we talking about here?
21 Q. Let's... I'm trying to understand the work
22 product that was done and how it was done. And in
23 contrast it looks -- let me -- let me go down to the ZIP
24 Code data. There are five ZIP Codes here that are used:
25 98055, 98056, 98057, 98058, and 98059; correct?
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 77
1 A. Uh-huh.
2 Q. Who determined that those were Renton ZIP Codes?
3 Did you determine that those were Renton ZIP Codes?
4 A. Didn't you ask this question already?
5 Q. Answer the question, please.
6 A. Again? Okay. So I went to places online,
7 checked to see --
8 Q. The question is: Did you -- were you the one
9 that made the determination that these are Renton ZIP
10 Codes?
11 A. You know, I was not prepared to answer this
12 question. I didn't do the research, so all I can do is
13 give you a general answer of what I would have done, and
14 that would be --
15 Q. I'm not asking what you did. I'm whether -- I'm
16 asking whether you are the person that did it or whether
17 it was somebody else.
18 A. Okay. I'm the one that did the research and
19 came -- and -- and settled on these ZIP Codes.
20 Q. Okay. That's the question that I was asking.
21 And that --
22 A. Okay. Oh, okay.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 A. (Laughter).
25 Q. So once you determined that those were the ZIP
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 78
1 Codes, you obtained population data for those ZIP Codes?
2 And if I'm looking at column K again for year 2010, each
3 of these hard-coded numbers, starting with 21,904 for
4 ZIP Code 98055, that's information that you got from
5 this website zip-codes.com?
6 A. I believe so, yes.
7 Q. Okay.
8 There's also a column that shows ZIP Code data
9 for the year 2000. Those are also -- all but one of
10 them have a number in there and -- and for 98057 it says
11 there is not a 2000 census available for that ZIP Code.
12 A. That's -- that's in the email chain too. We
13 discuss this. There apparently was an error when they
14 did the census.
15 Q. I -- I'm not asking you for an explanation of --
16 A. Okay.
17 Q. -- what happened. I'm asking if you can please
18 listen to the question that I'm asking you and answer
19 the question I'm asking you, not the question you want
20 me to ask you.
21 Did the numbers in this column for 2000 come
22 from the same website, zip-codes.com?
23 A. I believe so.
24 Q. Does the statement here: 2000 not census
25 available, reflect that zip-codes.com did not have a
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 79
1 population number for the year 2000 for ZIP Code 98057?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 A. But I need to add --
5 Q. That's all I've asked you.
6 A. (Laughter).
7 Q. Okay.
8 Let me then go back up or go over a little bit
9 and there are some calculations over here, both the --
10 there's an estimate -- a calculation to estimate, but
11 below that -- and I guess let's start with M 32, total
12 population in ZIPs 2010 that shows a number of 141,407.
13 You see that?
14 A. Uh-huh.
15 Q. And -- and there -- that figure is depicting a
16 formula that is the sum of the 2010 population data for
17 the five listed ZIP Codes; is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Okay. And then if we go over to -- to 032, we
20 see a -- another formula which is dividing the total
21 population in M 32 or the ZIP Code populations in M 32
22 by the City of Renton population in K 32 and getting the
23 ratio of basically 65.2 percent?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Okay.
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 80
1 And then just below that we see the 2009
2 numbers, and in 034 we have a similar calculation, this
3 estimated population of ZIP Code in 2009 divided by the
4 Renton population in 2009, and we get a ratio of 44.5
5 percent roughly; is that correct?
6 A. Uh-huh.
7 Q. Okay. And then if we go elsewhere on your
8 schedule, what we'll see is that for... This is hard to
9 do this when it's so large. Hard to see where --
10 A. Smaller would be better, yeah.
11 Q. Is there -- there's a -- a place, isn't there,
12 where you apply -- oh, here, yes, it's actually -- it's
13 stated here. So in making the population adjustment,
14 you adjusted it by 65.2 percent for the years 2010 and
15 each year after 2010, and you used the 44.5 percent for
16 the years prior to 2010 which would have been '7, '8 and
17 '9; is that correct?
18 A. Yeah. It was -- those are the years -- the
19 annexation, I even understood when I made this one, but
20 the annexation was a big deal. The annexation involved
21 1800 new citizens for -- for Renton. And it made --
22 made the population of Renton bigger compared to the ZIP
23 Codes. So it was important to work around that
24 annexation. And that's why this -- this estimate which
25 we determined was insufficient --
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 81
1 Q. Let's -- yeah, you're now volunteering
2 information that I'm not asking you about.
3 A. All right.
4 Q. So we're here in June of 2 -- June 30th, 2017,
5 on Exhibit 12 where you have sent to Renton for their
6 review --
7 A. Uh-huh.
8 Q. -- the schedule that we're looking at that makes
9 a population adjustment that uses one ratio for the
10 years '7 through '9 and a second ratio for the years '10
11 through '13.
12 A. Uh-huh.
13 Q. And you have described in your methodology how
14 you prepared those calculations. Did Renton ask any
15 questions about the methodology that -- that was
16 submitted in June of 2017?
17 A. I don't remember them asking, no.
18 Q. Okay. I'm going to stop sharing my screen now.
19 I think I have asked all of the questions that I had
20 intended -- well, actually, yeah, I'm going to stop
21 sharing my screen now here, and get reoriented on my
22 outline. Just a moment.
23 Okay, I have a... document that I would like to
24 mark as a new exhibit. I'm going to -- bear with me for
25 just a minute here. Get the right... Okay. I'm going
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 82
1 to forward this to everyone here. So --
2 MS. SAND: Will this be marked Exhibit 48?
3 MR. EDWARDS: This will be marked, I believe
4 it would be 47. I don't think we ever actually had a
5 47. Or no.
6 (Inaudible due to crosstalk.)
7 MR. EDWARDS: No, I'm sorry, let's -- yeah,
8 let's call it Exhibit 48. That -- that's how I've got
9 it reflected here in my notes.
10 THE WITNESS: Before you ask your next
11 question, is it all right if I take a five-minute break?
12 MR. EDWARDS: Yes.
13 MS. SAND: Well, wait a minute. Wait a
14 minute. It's the noon --
15 MR. EDWARDS: Do you want to take a lunch
16 break at this point?
17 MS. SAND: I was going to say, it's the noon
18 hour, so should we just take like 20 or 30 minutes? I
19 want to keep plowing ahead.
20 MR. EDWARDS: I do too.
21 MS. SAND: This is going to take all day and
22 I've actually got another appointment at 3:00.
23 MR. EDWARDS: I'm going to do my best to be
24 done by 3:00. Let's do a half hour lunch break like we
25 did before, or do you want to resume at 12:30?
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 83
1 MS. SAND: Let's just resume at 12:30 and
2 cut out four minutes.
3 MR. EDWARDS: Sounds good.
4 THE WITNESS: Sounds good.
5 (A luncheon recess was taken
6 from 12:05 p.m. to 12:31 p.m.)
7 BY MR. EDWARDS:
8 Q. Ms. Crisp, before the break you had made a
9 reference to the MTSA?
10 A. Uh-huh.
11 Q. You recall that?
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. What is the MTSA?
14 A. It's the mobile telephone sourcing act, and
15 it... it addresses the post-paid sourcing of calls. So,
16 like, who has the jurisdiction to tax those calls. And
17 it's quite a long document. But --
18 Q. Did you learn about the --
19 (Inaudible due to crosstalk.)
20 THE WITNESS: -- at some point.
21 BY MR. EDWARDS:
22 Q. You've answered my question.
23 A. Okay.
24 Q. Did you learn about the MTSA from Mr. Ashpaugh?
25 A. No, uh-huh. I was using the MTSA for prepaid
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 84
1 audits well before. I don't know if -- I can't say
2 before TracFone, but, like, near the inception of
3 TracFone.
4 Q. How did you become aware of the MTSA?
5 A. It was a different audit, a different taxpayer
6 that pointed it out and I -- I studied it in-depth. But
7 I had missed the prepaid, because at that time it wasn't
8 germane to that audit, and then I made the mistake of
9 applying it to TracFone.
10 Q. So you were -- you learned about it through the
11 conduct of an audit of a post-paid telephone company?
12 A. Yes. It's -- it became germane to that audit
13 and so I -- I studied up on it. But I -- I wasn't
14 looking for the word prepaid's at that time. And I
15 should have seen it. It's right there once you find it,
16 but it's a large document and I -- I missed that until
17 closer to the end of this audit.
18 Q. How did you become aware that the MTSA does not
19 apply to prepaid telephone service?
20 A. Well, somebody pointed out to me that -- that
21 usage... In all fairness, Mr. Ford tried to tell me,
22 but he was saying other things I disagreed with him on,
23 I didn't take him as seriously as I should have.
24 Then -- then that whole issue of usage was brought up in
25 another context and I decided to go through the MTSA
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 85
1 more carefully and I saw that it -- it precluded the
2 usage. I mean, it did not cover prepaid. And I see the
3 sense of it now sometimes --
4 (Inaudible due to crosstalk.)
5 BY MR. EDWARDS:
6 Q. The --
7 A. I --
8 Q. I -- I would like you to try to focus more
9 succinctly on the questions that I'm asking you.
10 A. All right.
11 Q. So did you just testify that nobody raised the
12 issue of the inapplicability of the MTSA specifically
13 with TRS, that that's something that you discovered on
14 your own initiative when you were doing research in
15 response to being alerted to the fact that Renton's
16 utility tax is not based on usage?
17 A. That's a multi-facetted question. Can you
18 simplify it?
19 Q. Did anybody connected with an audit of TracFone
20 raise the issue of the applicability of the MTSA with
21 you, or is the inapplicability something that you
22 discovered on your own?
23 A. I don't remember anybody bringing up the MTSA.
24 But they did bring up the usage being inappropriate in
25 this audit, and they were correct.
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 86
1 Q. You testified earlier that you had identified 35
2 invoices that TRS had issued in connection with past
3 audits; is that correct?
4 A. Telephone audits.
5 Q. The 35 is -- is specifically telephone audits?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And are you talking about low -- audits of city
8 telephone utility tax?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. How many different businesses were audited in
11 the -- within those 35 audits?
12 A. Can't say for sure, but I -- I would guess it...
13 I think about... I can come up with, like, eight,
14 counting TracFone, nine businesses. Oh, there's another
15 one. Ten.
16 Q. How many of those ten businesses have their own
17 telephone transmission facilities?
18 A. Let's see. I believe that we have only audited
19 one other company that was exclusively contracting for
20 their telephone... network services. So a mobile
21 virtual network operator I believe they're called.
22 Q. Where did you hear that term? Did you learn
23 that term from Mr. Ashpaugh as well?
24 A. No, actually, but it's in the Wikipedia account,
25 it's probably the first place I encountered it.
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 87
1 Q. With respect to that other non-facilities-based
2 company, so -- so let me see if I -- I'm understanding
3 correctly. Approximately ten different businesses were
4 audited by TRS for telephone utility tax?
5 A. Uh-huh.
6 Q. All but two of them, TracFone and one other
7 business, have their own telephone facilities?
8 A. Uh-huh.
9 Q. Is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. I believe so.
13 Q. Is -- are all of the audits of that other
14 company complete?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. How long ago were the audits of that other
17 company completed?
18 A. I would say years. I can't tell you exactly how
19 many years, but --
20 Q. More than three or four?
21 A. Probably right around that, about three. It's a
22 guess. I'd have to look that up.
23 Q. You had also testified that at a point in time
24 you purchased a prepaid cellphone for your daughter.
25 What brand of cellphone did you purchase for your
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 88
1 daughter?
2 A. That would be Virgin Mobile.
3 Q. Approximately when did you make that purchase of
4 the handset?
5 A. Let's see. She's 29 now. About six years ago.
6 Q. Approximately 2014?
7 A. I'm trying to remember how old she was. Yeah,
8 let's see. Yeah, somewhere around that.
9 Q. Did you purchase Virgin Mobile airtime cards to
10 use with that handset?
11 A. Uh-huh.
12 Q. How frequently did you do that?
13 A. Just once.
14 Q. Just in connection with the initial purchase of
15 the phone?
16 A. Yes. As far as I remember. Six years is a long
17 time to remember something.
18 Q. So any subsequent use of the phone your daughter
19 purchased her own airtime?
20 A. Yeah, direct.
21 Q. When you say "direct," she -- she purchased it
22 directly from Virgin Mobile --
23 A. Uh-huh.
24 Q. -- or do you -- do you know whether she did that
25 or purchased it from other retail stores or some
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 89
1 combination of both?
2 A. No, I think they -- as far as I know, it was all
3 direct.
4 Q. And do you have -- do you -- do you actually
5 know or are you just guessing?
6 A. She's 29 years old. I don't know what she did
7 with the phone since then.
8 Q. Okay. So you don't know how she's made
9 purchases since then; correct?
10 A. Well, I do remember helping her at least on one
11 occasion to do it directly.
12 Q. And how did that work?
13 A. You call them up and give them -- I don't --
14 probably -- she didn't have a credit card so she
15 probably used her debit card and -- and paid.
16 Q. I'd like to move on now to the -- the document
17 that I had sent just before the break, which I -- I
18 think we talked about being marked as Exhibit Number 48
19 for your deposition.
20 (Exhibit No. 48 marked.)
21 BY MR. EDWARDS:
22 Q. Do you have that now in front of you?
23 A. Let's see, I'm trying to figure out how to --
24 how to get to my desktop. It's not working. Maybe if I
25 go like this. There you go. You sent it via email,
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 90
1 Mr. Edwards?
2 Q. I sent it via email to the TRS email address.
3 MR. EDWARDS: Kari, you received a copy of
4 it; correct?
5 MS. SAND: Yes.
6 MR. EDWARDS: Okay.
7 THE WITNESS: Okay, it would be a
8 attachment?
9 BY MR. EDWARDS:
10 Q. No, it's actually an email chain. You'll see --
11 (Inaudible due to crosstalk.)
12 BY MR. EDWARDS:
13 Q. -- Mr. Ford had forwarded to me an email that
14 came from the TRS email address on Monday, May 15, 2017.
15 And it was sent to Nick Ford at TracFone.
16 A. Uh-huh. Okay. I'm starting to remember this,
17 yeah.
18 Q. Okay. Did -- were you the author of that email?
19 A. Probably, yeah.
20 Q. And it indicates that TRS found out Friday that
21 resident -- Renton residents make up a small amount of
22 the ZIP Code 98178 --
23 A. Uh-huh.
24 Q. -- but the number is material, about 496 people,
25 2 percent of the ZIP Code according to citydata.com.
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 91
1 And -- and there's a request to... to have him pull data
2 that includes the sales to the 98178 ZIP Code; is that
3 correct?
4 A. Yeah.
5 Q. Do you recall whether Mr. Crisp provided such
6 data?
7 A. Mr. Crisp?
8 Q. I'm sorry, Mr. Ford.
9 A. I believe so. I seem to remember him saying
10 that this includes, you know, this -- this stuff. But I
11 really didn't research that really carefully to refresh
12 my mind on every aspect of that, so, sorry.
13 Q. Okay.
14 But you do recall asking him to -- so and let
15 me -- at this point, at the time that you sent this
16 email in May of 2017, you had received sales data from
17 TracFone for the five ZIP Codes that we had looked at
18 when we were looking at the -- the schedule in -- in the
19 Office Libre?
20 A. LibreOffice? Okay. One more time. Say that
21 same question again.
22 Q. Okay. Prior to May of 2017, had you received
23 data for the other five ZIP Codes that we were looking
24 at, the 98055, '056, '057, et cetera, had you received
25 the direct sales data for sales to those ZIP Codes
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 92
1 before May of 2017?
2 A. I don't remember what month I got the last sales
3 data for the -- for the last years. Oh, but if I made
4 up the schedule and gave it to Renton to look at, then I
5 can infer from that that I thought that I had all of the
6 data from -- so let me -- let me check the email that --
7 Q. If we look at this email it says, "We can either
8 have you pull these for us, or increase the estimate by
9 the 98178 population by using a percentage." Does
10 that -- does that suggest that you already have sales
11 data for the other ZIP Code --
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. -- at that point?
14 A. We can infer that if -- if this was before we
15 sent the schedule for -- the first schedule to Renton,
16 then yeah, we -- we included this I believe.
17 Q. I -- I -- you're -- you're not listening to the
18 question that I'm asking.
19 A. Okay.
20 Q. I'm not asking what you included in the schedule
21 that you sent to Renton. I'm asking you about what data
22 you had received from TracFone. So in May of 2017, had
23 you received data from TracFone that had sales for ZIP
24 Codes that did not include 98178?
25 A. I believe I had... Yeah, I would say most
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 93
1 likely I had the other ones already, but I'd have to
2 look that up very carefully to see for sure.
3 Q. After you sent this email, did TracFone provide
4 you with sales data that included the 98178 ZIP Code?
5 A. See, I don't have a perfect memory of that, but
6 my guess is I did.
7 Q. And why is that your guess?
8 A. Well, why would I ask for it and not -- I don't
9 remember adding the 2 percent that I -- I mentioned in
10 the -- in the email. I have no memory of doing that, so
11 I must have received them. I got some pretty late ZIP
12 Code data from them. Maybe this was -- was it.
13 Q. And it was --
14 (Inaudible due to crosstalk.)
15 BY MR. EDWARDS:
16 Q. -- when you made the request; correct?
17 A. Pardon me?
18 Q. You had not asked for data for ZIP Code 98178
19 before May of 2017; correct?
20 A. Apparently not.
21 Q. I'm going to now send around an email that has
22 two attachments that I would like to -- to mark as
23 Exhibits 49 and 50.
24 (Exhibit Nos. 49-50 marked.)
25 BY MR. EDWARDS:
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 94
1 Q. Do you have that in front of you?
2 A. Okay. I'm trying to... Let's see.
3 (Sotto voce comments.)
4 Okay, there it is. Okay, so we need to open it,
5 preview it, I don't know. Okay, there's one. Where's
6 the other one.
7 (Sotto voce comments.)
8 So which one did I download already.
9 (Pause in the proceedings.)
10 THE WITNESS: (Sotto voce comments.)
11 They all have the same title. Oh, one says
12 50; one says 49.
13 BY MR. EDWARDS:
14 Q. And I'm going to ask you to look first at the
15 attachment that is marked as -- that is named Exhibit
16 49, what I sent you. I note that it has the Bates
17 number 199 on it.
18 Do you recognize that document?
19 A. Okay. So it's not this one; it's 49.
20 (Reviews exhibit.)
21 This was --
22 (Inaudible due to crosstalk.)
23 THE WITNESS: -- entered by -- by Nathan
24 Crisp. So we received it and then gave it to him to
25 enter.
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 95
1 BY MR. EDWARDS:
2 Q. I -- again, none of that is an answer to the
3 question that I asked you. Do you recognize this
4 document?
5 A. I recognize the type of document.
6 Q. Okay. Does it -- does it appear to be sales
7 data for the year March of 2008 for the billing platform
8 sales?
9 A. Yes, it does.
10 Q. Okay. And it identifies the ZIP Codes that are
11 included?
12 A. Uh-huh.
13 Q. And it includes at the bottom ZIP Code 98178?
14 A. And at what point did they mail this to -- to
15 us?
16 Q. I'm asking the questions here.
17 A. Oh, that's right. Yes, it has 98... uh-oh, did
18 I lose you?
19 Q. No, I'm still here.
20 A. Oh, okay. Okay. Let me get this out of the way
21 here. So ask your question again.
22 Q. Okay. This data provided by TracFone includes
23 sales for the -- for the ZIP Code 98178 in addition to
24 the ZIP Codes 98055 through 98059; correct?
25 A. Yes.
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 96
1 Q. Okay. And then if you open up and look at
2 Exhibit 50.
3 A. Okay.
4 Q. Do you have that in front of you?
5 A. Yes, I do.
6 Q. Okay. And that's the ATT -- APP tax data also
7 for March of 2008?
8 A. Okay.
9 Q. And it also has the -- the sales data for the
10 ZIP Code 98178?
11 A. Yes, it does.
12 Q. Okay.
13 I'm going to point out the -- the total amount
14 here of $6,063.98. Do you see that as the total for
15 those six ZIP Codes?
16 A. Uh-huh.
17 Q. Is that the figure that you used on the -- on
18 the schedules that were shared with Renton?
19 A. I don't know. I'd have to check. This is March
20 2008. That would have specific place. And it would be
21 under -- so we would use both of these numbers in
22 different columns.
23 Q. And I'm going to -- for the -- to try to make
24 this go a little bit faster, see if I can share again
25 the document that we were looking at earlier, which is
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 97
1 the -- the file titled ExcelPrelimRenton Tracfone.xls
2 which was opened in Office Libre or LibreOffice. I'm on
3 the tab titled Unreported Revenue Data. And I have
4 the -- I'm pointing at the cell U 21, which is showing
5 for March of 2008 the Internet sales. And do you see
6 that same figure of $6,063.98?
7 A. It's not showing up on my screen. I have to
8 ask, why are you using LibreOffice copy when the ones we
9 sent to the City of Renton were Excel?
10 Q. The -- I am using the program LibreOffice to
11 open the document.
12 A. Oh, okay.
13 Q. The document that I'm opening is -- and if you
14 look at the top, the -- the -- the file that you had
15 sent to me that has a .xls extension on it.
16 A. Okay. It's not showing up for me. All I've got
17 is your picture, your -- your -- the people and --
18 (Inaudible due to crosstalk.)
19 MR. EDWARDS: Kari and Grant, are you guys
20 able to see what I'm sharing on my screen?
21 MS. SAND: Yes.
22 THE WITNESS: So what -- what's going on?
23 Oh, okay. Zoom -- okay. Now I see it.
24 BY MR. EDWARDS:
25 Q. Go to Zoom. Hopefully it should show -- you
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 98
1 should be able to see my screen like you were seeing
2 before.
3 (Inaudible due to crosstalk.)
4 THE WITNESS: Not the final one that we sent
5 to you.
6 BY MR. EDWARDS:
7 Q. This is the very first one that was sent to
8 Renton in June of 2017 that was attached to Exhibit 12.
9 A. Okay. Let's see if I can -- I'd like to see the
10 date attached to -- right now there's a square around
11 the number 6,063.98.
12 Q. Right. And if you go over to column W, you'll
13 see that's -- that row is for March of 2008.
14 A. Okay. March 2008, and we have 6063.98, and we
15 also have -- what's that other number? 277 what?
16 Q. The number that's showing on the -- it's 277.63.
17 You're anticipating -- and those -- those two numbers
18 match the numbers on Exhibit 49 and 50 as the totals;
19 correct?
20 A. Right.
21 Q. So does this tell us that the total data in this
22 document is -- uses sales data that includes the ZIP
23 Code 98178?
24 A. Yeah.
25 Q. Okay. And -- and yet the population percentage
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 99
1 calculation did not include the ZIP Code population for
2 ZIP Code 98178, did it?
3 A. I don't believe so. I mean, I can't see it
4 right now, but --
5 Q. If we go back and look -- go too far. Here's
6 the list of ZIP Codes that are included in that
7 calculation.
8 A. Okay.
9 Q. And I did not see 98178 listed there.
10 A. I have to point out that this would be an
11 advantage for TracFone, because the bigger the
12 population of the ZIP Code, the smaller percentage of
13 Renton customers.
14 Q. So the other way to state it is: This
15 assessment overstates the amount of tax?
16 A. Understates. The bigger the ZIP Code is, the
17 bigger the denominator is that we -- we find the
18 percentage from. So the larger the ZIP Code population
19 is in comparison with Renton's population, then the
20 smaller the tax is.
21 Q. The smaller the ratio is going to be?
22 A. Right. Which would cut down your taxes, your
23 percentage of -- of the total. So it -- it was -- it
24 looks like it's a mistake and, as you know, we -- we
25 redid this and we redid the whole population stuff for
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 100
1 the final assessment, but this is definitely a mistake
2 that was in TracFone's favor.
3 Q. Well, I -- I will take issue with your
4 suggestion that it is in TracFone's favor, because the
5 formula is to divide the Renton population by the total
6 ZIP Code population. The larger that total ZIP Code
7 population is, the smaller the percentage that is
8 Renton --
9 A. Right.
10 Q. -- the smaller the proportion of revenue that is
11 treated as taxable; is that correct?
12 A. Right. So if you --
13 (Inaudible due to crosstalk.)
14 BY MR. EDWARDS:
15 Q. If you can please wait until I'm finished with
16 my question before you start answering.
17 A. I apologize.
18 Q. So do you still believe that the error is in
19 TracFone's favor or in TRS's favor?
20 A. Definitely in TracFone's favor, because the
21 smaller the number is, like that .5621, I multiply that
22 times the taxable amount. If it's a smaller number, the
23 taxable amount is smaller. Of course we didn't use this
24 to calculate the final assessment, but --
25 Q. Okay. Let -- let me briefly change the screen
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 101
1 that I'm sharing. And can you -- do you now see this
2 different --
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. -- schedule?
5 A. Yeah, this is unreported revenue data schedule.
6 Q. Okay. This is for -- this is a different
7 document. It was sent to me as a .ods LibreOffice
8 document.
9 A. Uh-huh.
10 Q. You'll notice that we have March on that -- the
11 same row, row 21, and the data is presented differently
12 in different columns, but I'll notice that the direct
13 sales here show $212.65 rather than the $229 that's on
14 Exhibit 49. And I would submit to you that if you do
15 the math, the difference between the figure here and the
16 figure on Exhibit 49 is the 98178 ZIP Code.
17 And if we go over to column H for where it says
18 "Internet" and we have a number of 5,444.07, and we
19 compare that to Exhibit 50, you will find the same
20 differential, that this number matches up with Exhibit
21 50 less the sales attributable to exhibit -- ZIP Code
22 98178.
23 Does that sound like that's likely to be
24 accurate to you? Do you have any reason to disbelieve
25 what I just said?
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 102
1 A. Well, yes, because the percentages are --
2 Q. I'm not asking you about percentages. I'm not
3 asking you about the raw data. This version of the
4 schedule uses data that does not include ZIP Code 98178;
5 is that correct?
6 A. Okay. State this --
7 Q. Yes or no?
8 A. I can't answer a question that I don't know the
9 parameters for.
10 Q. Did you prepare the schedule that we're looking
11 at, the Renton TracFone.ods?
12 A. It was populated by Nathan Crisp, our auditor.
13 However, if you could show me the area to the right I
14 can see, I want to know what this was reduced to. As
15 you see, it's not done with formulas. It -- it doesn't
16 remove a lot of things that are supposed to be removed.
17 Q. I'm not asking you what adjustments are being
18 made to the raw data. I'm asking you about the content
19 of the raw data itself.
20 A. Well, I --
21 (Inaudible due to crosstalk.)
22 THE WITNESS: This is raw data because it's
23 in a column that is not supposed to be raw data. I know
24 this is a very early attempt and we do this by iterative
25 process. It's possible it's raw data, but I can't tell
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 103
1 because I can't see the section that should involve, you
2 know, the reductions of those... those squares, those --
3 those columns. So...
4 BY MR. EDWARDS:
5 Q. Well, I can tell you that there were no
6 adjustments made to anything, that --
7 (Inaudible due to crosstalk.)
8 THE WITNESS: -- it is what later went into
9 column I think it's U and V.
10 BY MR. EDWARDS:
11 Q. The problem is you're trying to answer questions
12 that I'm not asking you. I'm asking you about the raw
13 data that you got from TracFone. I'm trying to
14 demonstrate you got raw data that did not include ZIP
15 Code 98178. You populated a version of a schedule with
16 that raw data, and you subsequently created a new
17 schedule that you populated with the data that did
18 include ZIP Code 98178; is that correct?
19 A. I can only answer on what I'm looking at, which
20 is incomplete. It's very incomplete. But if this is
21 the raw data, yeah, then that would be without the...
22 without that ZIP Code, perhaps, if you say it is, then
23 I'll agree, and you say that that's --
24 (Inaudible due to crosstalk.)
25 BY MR. EDWARDS:
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 104
1 Q. Would you like to spend the time going through
2 the math?
3 A. It wouldn't help me if I can't see the rest of
4 the schedule. You just --
5 Q. Okay.
6 A. I can't --
7 Q. Well, I guess I'm asking you if mathematically
8 the 6,063 whatever we were looking at --
9 A. Uh-huh.
10 Q. -- minus the numbers that were attributable to
11 98178 equaled 5,444.07, would you conclude that this is
12 showing the raw data exclusive of ZIP Code 98178?
13 A. Sure, I think that's a pretty supportable
14 conclusion given --
15 Q. Okay.
16 A. -- the information I have in front of me.
17 Q. Thank you. Then let's -- let's go ahead and
18 move on then. I'm going to stop sharing my screen here.
19 Yeah, I'd like to move now to Exhibit 16 from
20 Mr. Crisp's deposition.
21 A. Okay.
22 Okay, it's not open yet, so I'm opening it.
23 Q. Okay.
24 And Exhibit 16 starts with Bates number 665.
25 A. Uh-huh.
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 105
1 Q. Make sure everybody's looking at the same
2 document.
3 (Exhibit No. 16 marked.)
4 THE WITNESS: (Reviews exhibit.)
5 Okay.
6 BY MR. EDWARDS:
7 Q. Do you recognize Exhibit 16 as an email from you
8 to Jan Hawn and Nate Malone at Renton attaching newer
9 versions of both the schedules and the methodology?
10 A. (Reviews exhibit.)
11 Are these redundant?
12 Q. I'm sorry? I didn't hear that.
13 A. This page 665 redundant with 666?
14 Q. No, it is not. This is a email string.
15 A. Oh, okay.
16 Q. On page 666 you'll see that there is -- it
17 starts with an email from you calling -- saying, "We
18 have been looking harder at the population
19 proportion" --
20 (Inaudible due to crosstalk.)
21 THE WITNESS: I get it. Oh, yeah.
22 BY MR. EDWARDS:
23 Q. And then the top now you -- you're -- in there
24 you're asking for data. You were provided some data in
25 a linked report, and then it looks like you -- you
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 106
1 responded by sending --
2 A. Yeah, I remember.
3 Q. -- revised schedules and revised methodology; is
4 that correct?
5 A. Yeah, I get it, yeah.
6 Q. Did I interpret what I was looking at correctly?
7 A. I believe so.
8 Q. Okay.
9 And then I will note that the attachments, one
10 is titled ExcelPrelim3Renton Tracfone.xls. And the
11 other is Renton TracFoneMeth- -- 3Methodology.doc.
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. The attachments that we looked at for Exhibit 12
14 did not have a number in the name. And these reflect --
15 and these both have a number 3 in the name. Does this
16 suggest there might have been a version between these
17 two that would have had a number 2 in the name?
18 A. Yeah, I believe we sent that to you.
19 Q. I have a copy of it.
20 A. Okay.
21 Q. It's not clear to me whether you ever sent that
22 to the City or not.
23 A. I don't remember sending it.
24 Q. And so at this point we're talking about at
25 least three iterations: The first one not having a
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 107
1 number, a second one with the number 2, and now we're at
2 version numbered 3; is that correct?
3 A. These audits are made in iterative process. We
4 put something down, we look at it. If it has errors,
5 then we improve on that. If we want to be able to go
6 back and look at something that we did before, we change
7 the name and we keep the prior document just in case our
8 second-guess -- not guess, but our second approach is
9 not as good as the first and we can just abandon that
10 and go back to the first document. So, yeah, we have a
11 lot of iteratives and I -- they are full of errors, the
12 earlier versions. So that's why we abandoned them and
13 went on to better documents.
14 Q. Okay. And, again, the City, between June 30th
15 of 2017 and August 8th of 2017, had not raised any
16 questions or concerns about the methodology in the first
17 version; correct? Those were errors that you discovered
18 on your own?
19 A. I -- yes. I'd rather say in the city's defense
20 is that we had done a lot of auditing for them before
21 2017 and they had developed a lot of confidence. We --
22 we finish audits without a hitch. We fixed our own
23 problems. In those audits we were able to get feedback
24 from the taxpayer if we made some kind of a mistake
25 in -- and it wasn't in their favor, they would tell us
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 108
1 and we would fix it.
2 All that broke down with TracFone. But they
3 still were operating in confidence that we were doing a
4 good job for them and they didn't put a lot of time into
5 checking these things because of that, because of the
6 confidence they had in us.
7 Q. The --
8 A. Mike -- Mike, Mr. Crisp had confidence in me too
9 and that's why they didn't catch this error that you see
10 now. The population? That was -- I'm the one that
11 figured that out that we needed a better approach.
12 Q. The -- and can you concisely describe what the
13 improvement is from version 1 to version 3 of the
14 population calculation?
15 A. Yes. I can. Let me make sure I'm speaking to
16 the fact on the question you're asking.
17 (Reviews exhibit.)
18 Repeat your question one more time. I'm trying
19 to answer just what you ask.
20 MR. EDWARDS: Can you please read the
21 question back.
22 (Question was read back.)
23 THE WITNESS: Okay. So we have -- I'd
24 really rather go by what's written here, but I'm going
25 to go by memory because I can't read real fast.
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 109
1 So we came up with this problem -- we
2 realized there was a problem in the data I was getting
3 online. Whoever was telling the population of Renton
4 was just estimating it, and it didn't include the bump
5 in the population that happened in -- now I forgot the
6 year. 2000... It probably says here. 2008, because we
7 add 18,000 people between the -- the aquabar [phonetic]
8 annexation and the Benson Hill annexation. So you have
9 the ZIP Code staying the same size, but Renton
10 ballooning up inside of those ZIP Codes.
11 And so we -- we couldn't use the online
12 data. We had to do much more specific per year and get
13 something that -- that was more of a yearly -- yearly
14 method of estimation.
15 BY MR. EDWARDS:
16 Q. Okay. When I look at the second paragraph, it
17 says, "Hopefully this new method will work for TracFone.
18 The estimates that this ZIP Code site gives are a bit
19 lower for census years than the census numbers, so the
20 advantage is on the city's side." Can you explain what
21 that means?
22 A. Once again, by showing the ZIP Codes are smaller
23 than -- it's not an advantage for TracFone. A... I
24 think I -- like this -- this... Census I mean this
25 thing, because this site because it -- it gave yearly
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 110
1 increments for the ZIP Code population improvement,
2 which was more accurate than just going, you know, this
3 census or this census. It also seemed to have figured
4 out, as I remember, that -- that one census -- that one
5 ZIP Code was empty. It wasn't estimated. The census
6 people didn't take a count of it. So that -- that's
7 another reason I remember liking this.
8 But when I say "this new method will work for
9 TracFone," I mean that it can make TracFone comfortable
10 with that. And when I said that if they're unhappy with
11 this, we can feel good about giving them a little to
12 make them happy. Giving them a little was not to make
13 the estimate more reasonable. It would be making it
14 less reasonable. But it -- it really is something that
15 we want to do, if we possibly can, to make the taxpayer
16 happy, because they're more likely to pay and they're
17 more likely to communicate with us.
18 So what I was expressing here was not let's see
19 if we can get away with [distorted audio] TracFone. I
20 was expressing can we make them happy. If they're not
21 happy, we'll just do something to make them happy, as
22 long as it's --
23 Q. Let me stop you. Again, I -- I really would
24 like you to focus on the factual questions and not
25 trying to make argument. This is not a adversarial
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 111
1 proceeding.
2 A. No, I don't --
3 Q. And isn't it true you're calling out the fact
4 that the ZIP Code population data used for this version
5 has smaller population estimates than the ZIP Code
6 estimated data that were from the site that was used for
7 the other -- for the first calculation? The two
8 different sites are providing two different numbers,
9 they're not the same number; correct?
10 A. Okay, let me look at this one more time, because
11 there's something -- this surprises me.
12 (Reviews exhibit.)
13 Yeah, there -- there was a anomaly in just using
14 census numbers. The census numbers you can get from any
15 site.
16 Q. I -- I -- you're continuing to go off track.
17 (Inaudible due to crosstalk.)
18 BY MR. EDWARDS:
19 Q. The estimate -- please stop and listen to me.
20 The sentence says: The estimates that this site gives
21 are a bit lower for census years than the census
22 numbers.
23 So that's -- that's -- that's describing a fact
24 about the relative size of the numbers -- correct? --
25 that these are lower numbers than the other numbers; is
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 112
1 that correct?
2 A. That's what it says here.
3 Q. Okay. And then it goes on to say that that is
4 an advantage on the city's side, that using those lower
5 numbers is going to mathematically compute a higher
6 amount of tax; correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Okay. And so the idea of giving would be to use
9 the lower -- choose the lower numbers instead of the
10 higher numbers which would reduce the calculation of
11 tax; correct?
12 A. If it could be [distorted audio] a point that
13 this was less correct than theirs, then we could do
14 that.
15 Q. Does this condition the notion of using the
16 higher numbers on TracFone proving that the higher
17 numbers are a better choice than the lower numbers?
18 Isn't this saying, as between two sets of numbers, I
19 chose the numbers that give the City more tax, and if
20 TracFone balks at it, we can reduce it to use the
21 numbers that are instead more favorable to TracFone?
22 A. I think a better characterization of the
23 situation is that I came up with the numbers I thought
24 most closely what -- what happened, and that they were
25 the most reasonable numbers. And that's what I
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 113
1 presented to -- to the City of Renton.
2 Q. And that's why you could feel good about backing
3 off from those numbers if you were called on it?
4 A. We try to be as reasonable as possible. If for
5 a small concession we can make a taxpayer happy, we are
6 willing to do it generally. I mean, I can't do it
7 unilaterally, but with the City's permission, we can
8 work with a taxpayer that -- that brings up an issue
9 that they feel strongly about that's a -- you know, we
10 see differently, as long as we don't go too crazy.
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. I want to point out one thing though that there
13 was a missing 2000 census value for one of the ZIP
14 Codes. There was one that was so large compared with
15 the ten years before that it -- it -- it was really
16 strange. So we weren't looking at something that we
17 could prove categorically.
18 I just went to a site that looked like they were
19 taking into account all the problems and trying to solve
20 them. That's the one I chose. And when I was done, I
21 realized that -- that it actually increased the amount,
22 so I said if TracFone doesn't like this [distorted
23 audio].
24 THE REPORTER: I'm sorry, the end of your
25 answer was cut off by paper rattling.
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 114
1 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, I said -- so what
2 do you have so far?
3 (Answer was read back.)
4 THE WITNESS: Then we could work with them.
5 BY MR. EDWARDS:
6 Q. I'm -- I'm going to share my screen again and
7 I -- I am again sharing, hopefully, the -- the same
8 initial schedule that we had previously been looking at,
9 the ExcelPrelimRenton Tracfone.xls. Are you able to see
10 that?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Okay. And you see in column M 21 where we had
13 talked about for the total amount of tax being
14 $142,153.42?
15 A. That part is obscured by your... pictures of
16 you.
17 Q. I can --
18 (Inaudible due to crosstalk.)
19 BY MR. EDWARDS:
20 Q. -- move it over. Is that better?
21 A. Oh, there, now I see it very well. Thank you.
22 Q. Okay. So -- and then now I am going to move
23 from that version to the version that would -- that is
24 number 3. If you look up at the top it says
25 ExcelPrelim3Renton Tracfone.xls. And I don't know --
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 115
1 here, I'll try to move it a little bit. The tax amount
2 now is 147,108.73. Do you --
3 (Inaudible due to crosstalk.)
4 THE WITNESS: What was the first one? Can
5 you show me again?
6 BY MR. EDWARDS:
7 Q. It was a hundred and forty-two and something.
8 A. Okay. So the tax was $2,000 -- excuse me.
9 $5,000 more?
10 Q. Roughly $5,000 more, yes. And I -- I'd like to
11 go now to the tab for the -- we're still on the Prelim3
12 version -- to the unreported revenue tab. And you see
13 here where we have the list of ZIP Codes?
14 A. Uh-huh.
15 Q. Am I correct in not being able to see ZIP Code
16 98178, that that is not included in this third version?
17 A. No, it wasn't.
18 Q. And it looks like the ZIP Code populations now
19 are coming from a site called unitedstateszipcodes.org
20 as opposed to the zip-codes.com that was used in the
21 first version.
22 A. Okay.
23 Q. And am I -- that the city population data is now
24 coming from a -- this link that we saw to the City -- to
25 something that the City sent you?
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 116
1 A. Right, and it's all yearly.
2 Q. Okay. Did you keep a copy of the documents that
3 the City sent you with the City population data?
4 Because the link that we have in the emails doesn't work
5 and we have not seen that data.
6 A. I would think that -- that Renton would have
7 copies of that. It's their --
8 Q. The question that I asked is whether you, in
9 conducting the audit, retained a copy of the data.
10 A. No, I did not.
11 Q. Okay.
12 So if we wanted to check the accuracy of it, we
13 couldn't get backups from you that would verify the
14 accuracy, we would have to go to Renton to get the
15 information?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And then I just want to go up quickly. I'm on
18 row 20 here in columns U, V and W. And we see for the
19 date of March of 2008 the same data that we saw in
20 Exhibits 49 and 50, the 6,063 and the $277. So we're
21 looking at data that includes the 98178 ZIP Code, but
22 adjustment -- population adjustments that do not; is
23 that correct?
24 A. What we're looking at is all -- once again, an
25 advantage to TracFone, an error that I made by not
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 117
1 adding that into the ZIP Codes. Now we have a smaller
2 denominator, a higher percentage. You guys got over --
3 TracFone got an advantage here. I didn't divide it by
4 sufficient number of people, so you get a higher...
5 Let's see. I can't remember now. So that -- that's too
6 bad.
7 Q. So... if I divided -- I'm looking here at 2007
8 where it says the population was 60,000 in Renton.
9 A. Uh-huh.
10 Q. And this 45 percent is 60,000 divided by
11 133,000; correct?
12 A. Uh-huh.
13 Q. Okay. And you're telling me -- let's -- let's
14 just assume there's a 20,000 population at 98178. Are
15 you telling me that if we divided 60,000 by a hundred --
16 153,000 instead of 133,000, that this percentage would
17 go up?
18 A. It would go down.
19 Q. It would go down?
20 A. Uh-huh.
21 Q. And that would then make less of the total sales
22 to the population, to the ZIP Codes, subject to Renton
23 tax; correct?
24 A. Right.
25 Q. So tell me how subjecting less tax when you
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 118
1 include the ZIP Code would be a disadvantage to
2 TracFone.
3 A. Okay. So let's look at it 2 -- 2007... Okay.
4 Find in the unreported revenue data where we use N 47.
5 If you go over to the columns where the actual taxes
6 is -- is... is calculated. So go left, I guess, on this
7 document. Keep going. And find --
8 (Inaudible due to crosstalk.)
9 BY MR. EDWARDS:
10 Q. -- series, does that help? Total taxable
11 revenue?
12 A. Yeah, we want to go to, like, billing platform
13 sales.
14 Q. We can look at the Internet sales, that's the
15 bigger number here.
16 A. Pardon me?
17 Q. Yeah. So if we're on column H for the APP
18 sales --
19 A. That's -- that's fine too. And you'll notice
20 that -- okay, oh, I forgot to write down. What is the
21 population data? Shoot. Like -- okay. So down to
22 2007.
23 Q. Did 2007 --
24 (Inaudible due to crosstalk.)
25 BY MR. EDWARDS:
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 119
1 Q. It's at N 47.
2 A. No, the one we were looking at before. It's
3 yearly. Keep going down I guess.
4 Q. Well, it's not actually yearly; it's monthly.
5 So every month --
6 (Inaudible due to crosstalk.)
7 BY MR. EDWARDS:
8 Q. -- 2007, if I -- so if I look at July of 2007
9 where I am H 12, the formula takes the raw data U 12
10 and -- and makes three different adjustments: A data
11 adjustment, a... a interstate and international
12 adjustment, and then a population proportion adjustment;
13 correct? That's what's reflected in J in the 1, 2 and
14 3?
15 A. Uh-huh.
16 Q. Data is removed. And that's the multiplication
17 of the 1 minus K 15; correct?
18 A. Is that the [distorted audio] one? Yeah,
19 because I can't see -- I'd like to look to the right
20 side now.
21 Q. Do you see -- do you see the multiplication
22 times?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Times N 47?
25 A. Yes.
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 120
1 Q. Okay. And if we go to N 47... N 47 is the 2007
2 population ratio?
3 A. Okay.
4 Q. Okay.
5 A. That's -- that's --
6 Q. So it's -- so among the other adjustments,
7 it's -- it's reducing the -- the tax amount... or the
8 raw data so that it's calculating a tax base as 45
9 percent of the sales amount, and then makes other
10 adjustments to reduce it lower.
11 A. Right. So you know --
12 (Inaudible due to crosstalk.)
13 BY MR. EDWARDS:
14 Q. So if the number was 40 percent instead of 45
15 percent, there would be less tax calculated to be due;
16 correct?
17 A. Right.
18 Q. Okay. And if we were to add 20,000 to the sum,
19 wouldn't it make this ratio go down? Because that's --
20 (Inaudible due to crosstalk.)
21 BY MR. EDWARDS:
22 Q. -- denominator. One-fourth is smaller than
23 one-third; correct?
24 A. Uh-huh.
25 Q. So the bigger the denominator, the smaller the
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 121
1 fraction; is that correct?
2 A. Bigger the denominator, the smaller the
3 fraction. So -- oh, I see what you're saying. It would
4 make a smaller tax.
5 Q. So you still believe that your error of omitting
6 the ZIP Code population and making an adjustment to
7 sales data that includes the ZIP Code is an error that
8 favored TracFone or it favored the City?
9 A. Okay. So a smaller number -- let me think.
10 Divided by a larger number. I think you're right. How
11 did I make that mistake earlier?
12 (Sotto voce comments.)
13 Larger denominator would make... It's hard to
14 think under pressure like this. I'm much better when
15 I'm relaxed. Okay, a larger --
16 Q. Well, we don't need to dwell on this, because
17 this is just pure math.
18 A. Yeah. I'm going to have to look at that when
19 I'm not under so much pressure. But the denominator
20 divided by a larger number...
21 Q. I'd like to go back to Exhibit 16 briefly. I'm
22 going to be sharing my screen again shortly, but let's
23 look at Exhibit 16 first. The end of that paragraph
24 that we were talking about with the second paragraph
25 starts with, "The new total due is $298,228.55." Do you
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 122
1 see that?
2 A. No.
3 Q. I'm look -- if you look at Exhibit 16. Do you
4 have that in front of you? The document that has Bates
5 number 665 on it?
6 A. Uh-huh.
7 Q. And do you see the middle paragraph on that
8 first page, the very last sentence says, "The new total
9 due is $298,228.55." Do you see that?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Is that number just tax or is that tax, penalty
12 and interest?
13 A. I believe that's tax, penalty and interest.
14 Q. Through what date is the interest calculated in
15 that figure?
16 A. (Reviews exhibit.)
17 I couldn't tell you on the top of my head.
18 Q. Is that something that we would be able to
19 figure out if we were to go to the -- if we were to look
20 at the schedule?
21 A. Yes, it would take some time, but yes, we could.
22 Q. Okay. Let me -- I'm going to again share my
23 screen, and here we are looking at, hopefully, the...
24 the ExcelPrelim3 version of the schedule that we had
25 been just talking about. Do you see that on your screen
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 123
1 now?
2 A. Yeah.
3 Q. Okay. There's a tab called tax, penalty and
4 interest. I'm going to click on that.
5 A. Uh-huh.
6 Q. Are you familiar with this tab?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did you create this tab?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And it looks like there's a -- a column for
11 every month of the audit period starting with column B,
12 it is January of 2007; is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Okay. And if I scroll across then all the way
15 to column CL --
16 A. Uh-huh.
17 Q. -- that is the -- the column for the year or the
18 month May of 2017, the last month of the audit period?
19 A. Uh-huh.
20 Q. Is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Okay. And if we look at row 22 that I've now
23 highlighted, that's the computation of the amount of
24 interest due for the tax on that one specific month?
25 A. Uh-huh.
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 124
1 Q. And that is for the month of May of 2016 we're
2 starting with a interest rate of 76 percent; is that
3 correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And every month we move back, that number gets
6 increased by 1 percent?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Can you explain the theory behind that, the
9 formula reflected there starting with a fixed percentage
10 for the most current year and adding a -- current month
11 and adding 1 percent to each earlier month?
12 A. All right. The -- the tax code at that time
13 allowed for 12 percent per year, such we would add 1
14 percent per month on -- it's been done with auditing for
15 many years. So the -- the 76 percent reflects all 76
16 months until -- between when we started calculating
17 taxes back to this -- the month that this was due.
18 Q. Okay. So this schedule is calculating interest
19 through 76 months from May of 2013?
20 A. Yeah.
21 Q. Okay.
22 A. It was.
23 Q. When did you --
24 (Inaudible due to crosstalk.)
25 BY MR. EDWARDS:
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 125
1 Q. -- insert the -- the -- the 76 percent?
2 A. Okay. I wanted to say it's not really from May;
3 it's from June. This -- this May was not due until the
4 end of June. So there would be a month -- month less.
5 And I can't tell you. I'd have to do the math.
6 Q. But in this particular -- it's 76 months either
7 from May or June of 2013, if we add 76 months to the
8 starting point, we would be able to compute what the
9 interest calculation through date is; correct?
10 A. Yeah.
11 Q. Okay. I -- I would now like to direct you to
12 Exhibit Number 40 from Mr. Crisp's deposition. 4-0, and
13 it has Bates number 473.
14 A. (Reviews exhibit.)
15 Q. Do you have it in front of you?
16 A. Uh-huh.
17 Q. Do you recognize it as you copy of the
18 assessment that TRS issued to Renton or -- excuse me,
19 issued to TracFone in connection with the Renton audit?
20 A. Uh-huh.
21 Q. Okay. And at the top of the second page it
22 shows an amount due of $326,145?
23 A. (No audible response.)
24 Q. Now, the number we saw on Exhibit 16 was less
25 than $300,000. Did anything change between August of
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 126
1 2017 and February of 2019 other than additional interest
2 accruing at 1 percent a month?
3 A. Apparently. I forgot what the total was.
4 The... Was on... The other -- the one that -- the
5 earlier schedule.
6 Q. Did you make any changes to the computation of
7 the tax liability after the version 3 of the schedule
8 that we were looking at?
9 A. I can't remember in that much detail. If the
10 amount is different, then the calculation is different.
11 Q. You're confident of that?
12 A. I took this off of a schedule or probably Mike
13 did. And I would think that the interest might have
14 increased. Yeah.
15 Q. That's -- my question is: Did anything other
16 than the interest change?
17 A. I can't remember if -- we could check this out
18 just by looking at the schedule itself. What -- why
19 would we rely on my memory?
20 Q. Okay. That's fair. Let's look to the page that
21 is the third from the end of the exhibit. Actually
22 let's -- let's start with the -- the page that's Bates
23 numbered 476. So that's about four pages in.
24 A. Okay.
25 (Reviews exhibit.)
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 127
1 Q. Do you see that?
2 A. Yeah, you're comparing it to what I thought the
3 total was.
4 Q. I am -- I'm -- I'm -- I want -- let's look just
5 at the tax amount. 147108.73.
6 A. Okay.
7 Q. Do you recall that being the same tax amount
8 that we were looking at in the version 3 of the -- of
9 the schedules?
10 Rather than relying on your memory, let me share
11 that screen. Do you see the tax amount here being
12 147108.73?
13 A. Yes, that looks pretty much the same.
14 Q. Okay. So there does not appear to be any change
15 to the tax calculation?
16 A. Uh-huh.
17 Q. There's a penalty amount here of 36,777.30. You
18 see that?
19 A. Uh-huh.
20 Q. And if we look at Exhibit 4 -- 40 on page 476,
21 we see that same penalty amount?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Okay.
24 Now if we look at the third from the last page
25 of the assessment, so the page that's marked -- that's
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 128
1 Bates number 483. And if you look at the -- the column
2 for May 2013, what is the interest rate that is showing
3 there?
4 A. Okay. May...
5 Q. May of 2000- -- it's on page 483. It's the last
6 column that has any data in it other than zeros. And
7 it's the first column that has an interest rate, if
8 you're moving from the right to the left or the last
9 column.
10 A. 69 -- 69 percent.
11 Q. That's 69 or is that -- oh, yeah; okay. 69
12 percent. So -- and yet when we're looking at the
13 version that you sent to me the other day, that interest
14 rate -- and now I'm having your same problem of having
15 things in the way -- we were just looking at is 76
16 percent instead. Why am I getting a schedule with the
17 same name and a different starting interest rate?
18 A. This comes back to what Mike was saying he was
19 having a hard time recognizing the number that we sent
20 out in the estimated tax, and when we did the research
21 on why, it turned out that we had responded to a request
22 by Renton to update the tax to the current -- current
23 date. And we changed the -- the schedule to the -- to
24 the higher interest rate. But when we sent out the
25 assessment, we did it at the lower interest rate. So
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 129
1 apparently that's what you -- the assessment you
2 received was a lower interest rate.
3 Q. Okay. So the -- the version of the schedule
4 that was emailed to Renton in August of 2017 is going to
5 have yet a different starting percentage.
6 (Inaudible due to crosstalk.)
7 BY MR. EDWARDS:
8 Q. It's going to be lower than 69. So we have at
9 least three different versions of the same document all
10 of which are titled Excel Prelim3 Tracfone.xls, or is it
11 that you just kept changing that same document without
12 saving separate versions?
13 A. You said three documents. I'm only seeing two.
14 Q. Well, if we look at Exhibit 16, you sent an
15 Excel file to Renton August of 2017. It indicates there
16 that the total amount was 298,000. The assessment shows
17 an amount of 326,000. And now this version that we're
18 looking at on my screen shows an amount of 336,000. We
19 have three different total amounts all associated with a
20 document that has exactly the same name.
21 And so the question is: Did you just keep
22 changing the same document so there's no historic record
23 of different iterations of it or are there multiple
24 iterations that all have the same name?
25 A. I believe that the one that we sent with the
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 130
1 assessment was ExcelPrelim3Renton A, TracFone A.
2 Q. That -- well, the A only refers to the
3 methodology change. That's the only version of anything
4 that has an A on it.
5 A. I know there was an A, because I -- I fixed
6 this.
7 Q. What did you fix?
8 A. The -- well, the -- the ExcelPrelim3Renton
9 TracFone A, which is the final version that was supposed
10 to go with the assessment, that one we did change the
11 interest. Forgot to re-date it. So it came out, it was
12 larger. And then we went back, as I mentioned earlier,
13 and realized the mistake, so I changed the name, that
14 one double A, and went back to the one we sent as an
15 assessment. So that's why you're getting two, but I
16 believe they're both called Excel Prelim3 Renton A: One
17 with the higher interest rate that Renton asked us for,
18 and one with the lower interest rate that we sent with
19 the assessment.
20 Q. And you're confident that there is a version of
21 the schedules that has an A in the numbering?
22 A. I'd love to -- I'd like to double-check
23 everything I say, but that's a pretty strong memory that
24 I have.
25 Q. Okay. We have not -- none of the versions that
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 131
1 you've sent us, including the seven that were sent on
2 November 5th, contain the letter A in the naming
3 convention.
4 A. I didn't send it to you on September -- was it
5 September? It was just last week.
6 Q. November 5.
7 A. November 5; okay. Because I thought you already
8 had it. It came with the assessment. And it also has
9 been uploaded in -- as the exhibit. Has the A on it. I
10 could swear. So the that one I didn't send again. We
11 sent it earlier. Once it came with -- with corrupted,
12 then we sent it later uncorrupted. So you already had
13 that. But what you apparently only got through the
14 email chain, that one has... Yeah, that was the
15 higher -- I don't know. (Laughter). I'm getting all
16 these things mixed up.
17 Q. I'm going to formally request a copy of every
18 single different version that you have regardless of
19 whether or not you think you've previously produced
20 them.
21 A. Okay. I'll just go into the file and I'll get
22 you every one of them that we have and you can see
23 through it. (Laughter). I'm not supposed to crack
24 jokes.
25 MS. SAND: We will provide that.
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 132
1 MR. EDWARDS: Thank you.
2 This is probably a good point for a
3 five-minute break for me.
4 (A break was taken
5 from 1:54 p.m. to 2:06 p.m.)
6 THE WITNESS: Okay. I just wanted to say
7 that, sitting on the break, all of a sudden I could
8 think more clearly than when I'm in the spotlight.
9 MS. SAND: Mrs. Crisp, if you want to say
10 this on the record, we need to go back on the record.
11 THE WITNESS: Oh, I thought we were.
12 MR. EDWARDS: I'd understood we're on the
13 record as well.
14 MS. SAND: Okay, and --
15 MR. EDWARDS: And the court reporter gave us
16 the thumbs-up.
17 THE WITNESS: My apologies, sorry.
18 So I realized -- so I realized that what you
19 are saying is true, the larger denominator makes a
20 smaller number, and since you didn't get that larger
21 denominator, it reduced the tax.
22 I would also like to say that those kind of
23 things are the reasons why we send the audit to the
24 taxpayer to review. We really depend on them finding
25 errors that -- that are, you know, not in their favor
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 133
1 and helping us correct them and -- and it was too bad
2 that communications between TracFone and us broke down
3 to that extent.
4 The -- we sent them their final copy I think
5 around in 2017, and never heard back regarding any
6 errors we might have made or improvements they wanted.
7 Because I'm sure it was because they didn't believe they
8 owed taxes at all. But it made it hard for these things
9 to come to light on these types of errors. We try our
10 best not to make them in the first place, but --
11 BY MR. EDWARDS:
12 Q. To be clear, you're acknowledging that your
13 omission of the ZIP -- the ZIP Code data for the ZIP
14 Code 98178 resulted in an error in the City's favor and
15 overstates the calculation of tax; is that correct?
16 A. Yes, very small amount. It's very small ZIP
17 Code. But it did.
18 Q. And is the -- is it a -- an acceptable error
19 because it's small?
20 A. Every audit revolves around materiality and
21 [distorted audio] materiality. So a small percentage of
22 an audit isn't material, it just depends on how small a
23 percentage of the audit. And with this audit being, you
24 know, a hundred forty-seven thousand, you know, we're
25 just adding, what is it, a few hundred dollars.
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 134
1 Q. Do you think the difference is bigger or larger
2 than the $5,000 difference in tax between the two
3 versions of the population calculations?
4 A. Yeah, the -- the versions -- the reason why the
5 taxes go up so much with the new calculation is that the
6 population of Renton leapt, you know, 18,000. In fact
7 there were other annexations that were much smaller I'm
8 not even mentioning during that time that weren't
9 accounted for properly. That's what caused the $5,000
10 increase.
11 Q. The question was: Do you think the tax
12 difference that will result from adding the population
13 data for 98178 will change the tax calculation by more
14 or less than $5,000?
15 A. I'd rather work it out before I answer, but my
16 guess it would be substantially less.
17 Q. I'd like to go back to Exhibit 16, which is the
18 document we were looking at before the break. And to
19 reframe us here, Exhibit 16 was sent by you to the City
20 on August 8 of 2017 and included version 3 of both the
21 schedules and the methodology. And this is roughly six
22 weeks after version 1 had been sent as part of Exhibit
23 12.
24 If we look at the third page of Exhibit 16,
25 which bears Bates number 667, you see that? That's the
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 135
1 methodology narrative?
2 A. Uh-huh.
3 Q. And it still makes reference to UUT taxes?
4 A. Uh-huh.
5 Q. And it still emphasizes the -- and stresses that
6 the taxes are levied on usage, not on sales?
7 A. Uh-huh. I -- I don't remember at which point we
8 changed this, but apparently we hadn't changed it at
9 this point.
10 Q. And the -- and the real change is on the second
11 page, 668, in the description of how the population
12 proportion was calculated --
13 A. Uh-huh.
14 Q. -- is that correct?
15 A. I believe so.
16 Q. And we've confirmed that both version 1 and
17 version 3 failed to include the population for ZIP Code
18 98178?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And -- I'll stop there. Let me move now to
21 Exhibit 17 which bears Bates number 677.
22 A. So are we through with 16?
23 Q. We are through with 16 for the time being.
24 Probably for the -- for this deposition.
25 A. Okay.
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 136
1 Now I'm supposed to go to 17 you said?
2 Q. 17; correct.
3 (Exhibit No. 17 marked.)
4 THE WITNESS: (Reviews exhibit.)
5 ... where that number came from.
6 BY MR. EDWARDS:
7 Q. Do you have Exhibit 17 in front of you?
8 A. Yeah, this is pretty much the same thing that
9 you gave us before; right? Except --
10 (Inaudible due to crosstalk.)
11 BY MR. EDWARDS:
12 Q. The -- yeah, this now is a response to Exhibit
13 16 and it's from the City.
14 A. Uh-huh.
15 Q. It says: I've realized there is a fair amount
16 of estimation involved and I'm fine with your approach?
17 A. Uh-huh.
18 Q. So this is the City saying we don't need any
19 further changes to the schedules? Maybe let me ask the
20 question a different way.
21 Why wasn't the assessment issued after you
22 received Exhibit 17 from the City?
23 A. I'm trying to collect in my mind what
24 information I have on that. I don't have it available.
25 I believe that we sent an -- and I don't know exactly
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 137
1 when, but we sent an email to the City later on saying
2 that there were things going on that would affect the
3 outcome of this audit, specifically the fact that
4 TracFone was saying they don't owe any tax at all, and
5 that we would like to get back to them once these things
6 had resolved themselves. And we didn't give them any
7 particulars of what company or what things, but Renton
8 just trusted our judgment and we put it -- put it off
9 for a while.
10 Q. So at the point of time that we're looking at
11 Exhibit 17, Renton had approved of the assessment that
12 you prepared; is that correct?
13 A. Uh-huh.
14 Q. Renton was not expecting any further work to be
15 done before the assessment would be ready to be issued;
16 correct?
17 A. Well, the thing is that we ended up using the --
18 a different schedule than this one I was talking about.
19 We're just discussing our method here. And I don't
20 believe --
21 Q. Did Renton have any concerns with your method?
22 A. Not at this point.
23 Q. Did Renton ever have any concerns about your
24 method?
25 A. Concerns.
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 138
1 (Reviews exhibit.)
2 One thing that they were using population for
3 Renton, I was going to use an online source.
4 Q. Did Renton tell you that they were fine with the
5 approach that you had used in exhibit -- in the version
6 3?
7 A. Okay. You asked if they ever did. Is that the
8 question you want me to answer or a different one?
9 Q. I'm -- the question that we're trying to get
10 answered is: Why, after Renton said they're fine with
11 what you sent them, did you not issue the assessment?
12 What caused you to not issue the assessment? Did Renton
13 ask you not to issue the assessment? Did Ren- -- and
14 I -- I keep asking -- I'm piling on my question. Let's
15 start from ground zero here again.
16 Why didn't you issue the assessment once Renton
17 said they were fine with it?
18 A. They said that they were fine with the approach,
19 and I wouldn't not say that that was -- that meant that
20 the -- that the estimation was complete at this point
21 just because they liked our approach.
22 Q. What more did -- did Renton believe needed to be
23 done by TRS before the assessment would be ready to be
24 issued?
25 A. Without the date and every -- the schedule of
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 139
1 what happened in front of me... Here I see that they
2 liked the approach. We implemented the approach. But
3 they were -- this -- this is -- we didn't send the --
4 Q. I'm asking you why you didn't send it when they
5 told you -- I read 17 it says, We're happy with what you
6 did. It doesn't ask you to do anything more. Why at
7 that point did you say, Well, even though Renton's okay
8 with it, we're going to choose not to issue the
9 assessment?
10 A. I believe the error here is that you're saying
11 that them being happy with our population approach, that
12 meant that the audit was completed. This is a very
13 specific thing that he's happy -- that they're happy
14 about. It's not the full audit. I can't remember what
15 else we did, but it was enough that it had a different
16 name. I put an A in it. So there was something else
17 still going on in the audit at this point as far as I
18 can tell.
19 Q. Okay.
20 Let's move on to Exhibit 19. That's Bates
21 number 686. Do you have 19 in front of you?
22 A. Yeah.
23 Q. Do you recognize the Kenyon Disend memo that is
24 attached to Exhibit 19?
25 A. Yes, I do.
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 140
1 Q. How did TRS get ahold of that memo?
2 A. I know that we knew Chris Bacha. I remember
3 talking to him about this when he wasn't even finished
4 with -- with the memo, the brief or whatever. I -- we
5 did not hire him to make this brief; okay? We never
6 paid any money for it at all, but we were made aware of
7 it probably because he knew that we do audits for lots
8 of cities.
9 This isn't specifically about TracFone, but just
10 the type of company that TracFone is, you know, there's
11 quite a few companies that have operated the way --
12 Q. Did Mr. Bacha give this to TRS?
13 A. We were able to get a -- a early copy of it,
14 yes.
15 Q. When you say get it, a early copy, you're making
16 it passive.
17 A. Yeah.
18 Q. How -- how did you get it?
19 A. It was -- I believe we got -- the first copy was
20 online.
21 Q. What do you mean by "online"?
22 A. Open source online, but he gave us a way to
23 download it. It was a long time ago, but that's my best
24 memory.
25 Q. So Mr. Bacha provided this to you?
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 141
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Are you -- are you testifying that this was not
3 something that he prepared for TRS, but he just
4 gratuitously gave it to TRS because he thought that TRS
5 might benefit from it?
6 A. No, I think he was hoping that he and his firm
7 would benefit from it.
8 Q. Did you have any conversations with him about
9 this document?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Describe those conversations.
12 A. He was saying that -- that this type of a
13 company may have taxation issues, and that we should go
14 ahead with it if -- if we wanted to, look into this type
15 of company.
16 Q. What do you mean by "this type of company"?
17 A. These are -- let's see. It says very
18 specifically on here.
19 (Reviews exhibit.)
20 He says they're -- they're -- the fact that
21 telecommunications services are paid for in advance
22 through the purchase of prepaid cards does not change
23 the fact that mobile telecommunications services are
24 being provided.
25 Q. I'm not asking you to read the document. I'm
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 142
1 asking you to explain your understanding of you -- you
2 used a phrase. I'm asking you what you meant by the
3 phrase that you used.
4 A. Which was?
5 Q. Let's move on.
6 A. Okay.
7 Q. How many conversations did you have with
8 Mr. Bacha about this document?
9 A. I only remember one.
10 Q. Okay. Is it your understanding that this is
11 something that he had previously prepared and simply
12 gave to you?
13 A. Yes. He prepared it.
14 Q. Did he explain to you why he had prepared it?
15 A. That I don't remember.
16 Q. Did he explain to you why he chose to simply
17 give it to you?
18 A. No. I'm tempted to come up with my theory of
19 why he did it, but I -- I can't say that he explained
20 why.
21 Q. If we look at the first page of Exhibit 19, the
22 email, the attachment reflects that the document is
23 named KD Web Version-Cln drft v -- drft v4. There's a
24 space and then 103012.docx. Do you understand the
25 103012 to reflect a date of October 30th, 2012?
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 143
1 A. 10... Could you say that again?
2 Q. Would it -- do you believe that this document
3 was created approximately on October 30th of 2012?
4 A. (Reviews exhibit.)
5 I just can't remember the chronology of this.
6 It might have been.
7 Q. So this document wouldn't have been a basis for
8 delaying the issuance of the assessment; correct?
9 A. It definitely was not. Yes, that's correct.
10 Q. This is something that you had been familiar
11 with for years by the time the schedules were prepared?
12 A. Yeah, I can't tell you how many years, but it --
13 it probably was years. And it gave me great confidence
14 that -- that prepaid telephone usage is taxable. I
15 mean, usage -- I used "usage" again. Prepaid telephone
16 activity is taxable under the state of Washington codes.
17 Q. Let's move on to Exhibit 21.
18 A. Okay.
19 Oh, lots of redactions.
20 Q. What is the hold -- what are the further
21 developments that TRS was waiting for in November of
22 2017?
23 A. I don't feel at liberty to ask -- answer that
24 question because they were outside of the -- the
25 TracFone-Renton audit. But I must say that TracFone
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 144
1 never asked us what's going on with the audit, never
2 encouraged us to move forward. We felt we were okay to
3 wait.
4 Q. Wait and let interest accrue at 1 percent a
5 month while you see what might happen somewhere else?
6 A. A taxpayer is always free to -- to object to
7 interest. And I -- I don't think that as it was
8 TracFone was charged all of that interest. But if they
9 didn't like the interest amount, they needed to speak up
10 and --
11 Q. And if they had spoken up, you would have
12 adjusted the interest?
13 A. Well, that would be up to Renton. My guess is
14 they very much would have, but they get to decide. It's
15 their audit once it's to this point.
16 Q. It's purely discretionary as to whether interest
17 is charged or not?
18 A. Well, if the -- you can show that it was our
19 fault and not yours. I mean, if a taxpayer can show
20 that it's their fault and not yours. I've never seen a
21 city --
22 Q. So I'm going to -- here Exhibit 21 says TRS has
23 this audit in a holding pattern; correct?
24 A. That -- that was our recommendation.
25 Q. Okay. So the City wasn't asking it to be held;
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 145
1 correct?
2 A. The City was trusting us and they never asked a
3 question as to why, because they had confidence in us.
4 But I can assure you, the motivation was not to increase
5 the interest accrued. And the final amount that went
6 out wasn't the full interest that was owed.
7 Q. Oh, really? What was the -- what was the
8 interest adjustment that was -- was prepared in the
9 final assessment?
10 A. It's so hard to come out with these specifics.
11 I'm so used to researching every word I say and can't do
12 that in a deposition. But as I told you before that we
13 found out that the amount that -- that the City had
14 asked us to compute the interest up to the current date,
15 was not sent out in an assessment, but one -- I think it
16 was in 60 something months instead of 70 something
17 months. Remember our earlier discussion on this issue.
18 So... the... I can't think what I was going to say.
19 Q. Let's move on.
20 [Distorted audio]. TracFone -- or TRS had made
21 the decision not to issue the assessment; correct? It
22 was TRS's decision not to issue the assessment?
23 A. We are hired by the City of Renton. We can
24 advise. We can't make decisions. We just do whatever
25 they say, but when we make -- we made the advice --
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 146
1 advice to do it. And so --
2 Q. You advised not to issue an assessment?
3 A. Right, because there were things going on in the
4 auditing world that we knew about. One of the things
5 was court cases in Missouri. And there were other
6 issues locally that I wouldn't discuss in this
7 deposition. But in the interest of, you know, resolving
8 issues only once, it was nice to get those things
9 resolved before we moved on.
10 Q. When you refer to the Missouri court case, when
11 did TRS become aware of the court case in Missouri?
12 A. You know what, I'm not good at that stuff.
13 Mike's the one, he loves to read court cases and -- and
14 I usually cloud over. I'm more of a nuts-and-bolts type
15 person. And I -- I really don't get into court cases
16 unless I just can't -- (laughter). But we -- I did -- I
17 was aware that these were going on. I just don't
18 remember when.
19 Q. Was TRS aware of the existence of a court case
20 in Missouri before the Court's decision was issued?
21 A. I believe so.
22 Q. How did TRS become aware of the existence of a
23 court case in Missouri before the decision was issued?
24 A. It's on the Internet. Once you open a court
25 case, it's public knowledge. You can just... You can
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 147
1 just Google TracFone and find out what -- what
2 litigation they've been involved with and...
3 Q. And that will get you results of litigation that
4 has not been -- not yet resulted in a court decision?
5 A. Once it's open, I believe so. But once again,
6 I'm talking out of school. I'm out of my lane. I'm not
7 an expert in this.
8 Q. You don't know how Mr. Crisp became aware of the
9 existence of the -- of the Missouri case?
10 A. I guess I'll have to say no. I thought I -- I
11 just assumed that -- that that's how he found it. It's
12 strange you say that that wouldn't be available because
13 I would have assumed it would have been.
14 Q. And the other developments had to do with
15 TracFone -- with TRS's audit of TracFone in connection
16 with other cities?
17 A. I -- I cannot speak to that.
18 Q. You mean you will not speak to it?
19 A. (Laughter). I don't feel free to do it.
20 Q. You know the answer, but you're withholding that
21 information; is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Let's move to Exhibit 22. Do you have Exhibit
24 22 in front of you?
25 A. Yes, I'm reading it right now.
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 148
1 (Reviews exhibit.)
2 All right.
3 Q. What happened on October 28, 2017?
4 MS. SAND: The document says November.
5 MR. EDWARDS: I'm sorry, November 28, 2017.
6 Thank you.
7 THE WITNESS: It says here we discovered
8 that there needs to be an adjustment to the methodology.
9 BY MR. EDWARDS:
10 Q. That's a very specific date. How did you
11 discover that there needed to be an adjustment to the
12 methodology?
13 A. Somebody pointed out to us once again that it
14 should be done on usage.
15 Q. And we -- when you say "somebody," you're not
16 referring to me, are you?
17 A. (Laughter). I'm saying that very generally that
18 somebody did that.
19 Q. I'm going to be very explicit. Tell me yes or
20 no whether you're referring to me.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. What communications did I have with you? I've
23 never had any communications with you personally since
24 or ever prior to this -- these depositions; correct?
25 A. I am thinking I said it was you, because that
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 149
1 showed up in one of our updates.
2 Q. Uh-huh.
3 A. But the fact is that you are TracFone's lawyer
4 for the Renton audit. And I have been told repeatedly
5 that the usage argument was wrong. When I find out that
6 from any source, then I feel justified in -- in
7 spreading that to every single audit to make those
8 audits more correct. And I appreciate any source of
9 information that I might get.
10 Q. Including the memo that I wrote to a lawyer for
11 another city for whom you were conducting an audit of
12 TracFone?
13 A. I'm not going to speak to that. I'm not here to
14 talk about something outside. But I do know that I
15 disclosed that -- your name well before in connection
16 with the Renton audit, and I also came to realization I
17 was making an error in other audits, and using that
18 realization I -- I went about fixing it. It was the
19 right thing to do. And I didn't disclose anything to
20 Renton that they would not know that you were their --
21 was TracFone's audit. So if I put your name in there
22 instead of Mr. Ford's, I apologize.
23 Q. Let me -- let me be, I guess, a little bit more
24 blunt. Somebody who was not me and was not anybody from
25 TracFone gave you a document that I wrote; is that
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 150
1 correct?
2 A. That sounds like that's completely out of the
3 scope of this deposition.
4 Q. It is directly in the scope of this deposition.
5 This deposition is about your audit of TracFone. In
6 your audit of TracFone, you said that you learned
7 something on a particular date, and how you learned it
8 is absolutely proper scope of this deposition.
9 A. No, it is not. I'm -- I have to -- have to
10 disagree with you strongly. This -- this point of usage
11 was brought up multiple times by Mr. Ford and you have
12 been the lawyer for this. To make something bigger of
13 it, I'm just not going to go along with that. You're
14 trying to set some kind of trap for me, and I don't
15 appreciate it.
16 Q. I don't appreciate your misrepresenting the --
17 what is happening and suggesting that there are emails
18 that don't exist and dissembling about where you've
19 learned things from.
20 So now let's start over. Were you given a
21 document that I wrote, yes or no?
22 A. I'm not going to speak to that. It's not part
23 of this deposition.
24 Q. It is part of this deposition. Were you given a
25 document that I wrote?
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 151
1 THE WITNESS: Kari, is there nothing you can
2 say on my behalf here?
3 MS. SAND: Ms. Crisp, you've been asked a
4 question and you need to answer the question to the best
5 of your ability.
6 THE WITNESS: Okay. I don't know what's
7 going to happen to me, but I refuse.
8 BY MR. EDWARDS:
9 Q. What is the basis for your refusal?
10 A. To speak to that might cause more problems, so I
11 am not going to speak to that.
12 Q. You're going to refuse to explain why you refuse
13 to answer the question?
14 A. Uh-huh. Right.
15 Q. Is it your testimony that Mr. Ford sent you
16 emails that have not yet been produced to us in which
17 Mr. Ford asserts that the Renton utility tax is not
18 based on usage?
19 A. No, I didn't present those to you, but you have
20 them in your possession because they're your client's
21 emails. I plan to send them to you. It's redundant,
22 but I will do it.
23 Q. Did you receive those emails before or after
24 November 28, 2017?
25 A. Definitely before.
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 152
1 Q. So those were not the basis for discovering that
2 there needed to be an adjustment to the methodology?
3 A. Right. We got an aha moment somewhere around
4 this time.
5 Q. But you refuse to describe to -- to -- disclose
6 how you got that aha moment?
7 A. Pretty much.
8 Q. But are you also suggesting that that wasn't the
9 first time you had been told that you were wrong in
10 describing the tax as being imposed on usage?
11 A. Yes, unfortunately I didn't believe Mr. Ford
12 until very late in the game. He kept --
13 Q. Did you ever look -- did you ever look at the
14 City of Renton's tax code?
15 A. Yes. (Laughter). Quite a bit.
16 Q. And you concluded from reading their tax code
17 that the tax was imposed on usage?
18 A. No, I got that -- that... wrong impression from
19 reading the MTSA and skipping over the part saying the
20 MTSA does not apply to prepaid.
21 Q. What in the MTSA caused you to believe that
22 Renton's tax was imposed on usage?
23 A. I can't quote you chapter and verse, but the
24 MTSA does say that sourcing is done via usage for
25 prepaid -- I mean for post-paid it was a really big
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 153
1 deal, especially before they started doing packaged
2 minutes. I -- I did an error in saying that -- that
3 usage was important for -- for telephone utility audits.
4 I -- I erred in applying that to prepaid.
5 Q. Is one of your responsibilities as an auditor to
6 determine how the tax code applies to the taxpayer's
7 business?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And that turns on what the tax code says is
10 subject to tax; is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And rather than looking at Renton's tax code to
13 decide how tax is imposed, you looked at the MTSA
14 instead?
15 A. MTSA is a sourcing act. All that it does is
16 talk about how the telephone use is sourced. In other
17 words, which jurisdiction is using it. And so it didn't
18 affect this audit at all. The -- the Renton code and
19 the 35A of section -- of the state code applied and
20 those applications were done correctly. We applied the
21 code very well in this audit, and I still believe
22 that -- that you're a telephone commune -- telephone
23 company and under the code that TracFone owes this tax.
24 And the usage argument is just a red herring. It
25 doesn't have anything to do with how -- how the tax is.
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 154
1 Q. So it doesn't matter as a legal matter whether
2 the tax is imposed on usage or sales. Those are -- I
3 don't understand why a fundamental aspect of what is
4 subject to tax is irrelevant.
5 MS. SAND: Object to the form of the
6 question to the extent it calls for a legal conclusion.
7 BY MR. EDWARDS:
8 Q. In your methodology you said that tax is
9 properly owed on usage. I understand that you're
10 telling me that that's not relevant, but I'm asking you
11 a different question. The question is: How did you
12 come to the conclusion that the Renton utility tax is
13 owed on usage?
14 A. The wrong conclusion that I made earlier?
15 Q. How did you come to the conclusion? Whether the
16 conclusion was right or wrong, I want to understand how
17 you came to it.
18 A. I was applying the MTSA sections that should
19 have only been applied to post-paid, and I was applying
20 it to prepaid.
21 Q. Well, I guess I'm trying to flesh out the
22 distinction that you're making between what a tax is
23 imposed on and how income is sourced. With respect to
24 the usage, you assert in the methodology that the tax is
25 imposed on the usage. With respect to the MTSA, you've
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 155
1 testified that the MTSA doesn't involve what the
2 imposition is, it only deals with sourcing. So I'm
3 trying to --
4 (Inaudible due to crosstalk.)
5 BY MR. EDWARDS:
6 Q. -- reconcile those two different statements and
7 understand where -- whether they're consistent or not
8 with each other. Do you understand the difference
9 between what a tax is imposed on and how to source
10 income?
11 A. They overlap. They're not exactly the same
12 thing, but they overlap. And if you... If you have a
13 post-paid, you use the MTSA and you can go to usage and
14 you get usage data from the taxpayer, and you -- you
15 follow the sourcing guidelines in the MTSA.
16 If you have prepaid it's way simpler. You just
17 simply find out what revenue they made from supplying
18 telephone business to -- running a telephone business
19 and supplying telecommunications to the people that
20 reside within the city of Renton. Very simple.
21 I... It -- is it germane to whether tax --
22 TracFone is taxable as a telephone company? No. Does
23 it change how we calculated the tax for Renton? No.
24 That -- it -- I can't see why it matters.
25 Q. I'm not asking you why something matters. I'm
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 156
1 asking you whether you understand the difference between
2 two different things.
3 Let's move on to Exhibit 23.
4 A. Bates 131?
5 Q. Yes, that's correct. Do you have that in front
6 of you?
7 A. Uh-huh.
8 Q. This is the January 2018 monthly report to
9 Renton?
10 A. Yes. I believe so.
11 Q. And the first -- the first reference is to a
12 December 18, 2017, email that TRS sent to Renton?
13 A. Uh-huh.
14 Q. And that -- that relates to the methodology; is
15 that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Okay. I am going to now send around -- I guess
18 we're on Exhibit 52 is it? And I think that's what I've
19 named it, whether that's right or not.
20 THE REPORTER: Counsel, I have Exhibit 51.
21 MR. EDWARDS: Okay. Unfortunately I
22 pre-named it. You can go ahead and mark it as 51, but
23 what I'm going to send around to everybody is named
24 Exhibit 52 unfortunately.
25 MS. SAND: You made a numbering error?
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 157
1 MR. EDWARDS: I did, yes. So here... I have
2 just sent that out.
3 (Exhibit No. 51 marked.)
4 MR. EDWARDS: I should have had that
5 prepared a little bit earlier, but...
6 BY MR. EDWARDS:
7 Q. Ms. Crisp, have you received that document yet?
8 A. No.
9 MR. EDWARDS: Kari, have you received it?
10 MS. SAND: Not yet. I keep refreshing my
11 inbox, but not yet.
12 MR. EDWARDS: Let me check my outbox here,
13 make sure that it went.
14 MS. SAND: Oh, just got it.
15 MR. EDWARDS: Oh, okay.
16 THE WITNESS: I'm refreshing again because I
17 haven't gotten it yet.
18 MR. EDWARDS: And, Kate, have you received
19 it? Okay, perfect.
20 BY MR. EDWARDS:
21 Q. And, Ms. Crisp, you still haven't gotten it yet?
22 A. Yeah, I haven't gotten it yet.
23 Try again. It's not coming up. I don't know
24 why it got to everyone else.
25 MS. SAND: Did you refresh your inbox?
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 158
1 THE WITNESS: I did. One more time. No,
2 it's not there. Let's check spam maybe, anything else
3 came. No. Can you send it to me one more time,
4 Mr. Edwards?
5 BY MR. EDWARDS:
6 Q. Yes, I'm going to resend it to everybody just
7 to... I'm going to send it to you, but I'm going to copy
8 Kari and Grant. And I guess since the court reporter
9 got it, I don't need to do that. But I want to make
10 sure Kari gets a copy of anything that I communicate
11 with you.
12 MS. SAND: I received it.
13 MR. EDWARDS: Okay.
14 THE WITNESS: Oh, now I've got lots. They
15 all came at once.
16 (Inaudible due to crosstalk.)
17 THE WITNESS: All right, so...
18 BY MR. EDWARDS:
19 Q. If you can open up the attachment that is named
20 Exhibit 52, although it's going to be marked Exhibit 51
21 for the purposes of the deposition.
22 A. Okay.
23 Q. Does this appear to be the December 8, 2017,
24 email that is referred to in the January report?
25 A. I can't -- repeat that one more time.
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 159
1 Q. Does this appear to be the December 8, 2017,
2 email that is referred to in the January report?
3 A. January report.
4 Q. Exhibit 23 that we were just looking at. If you
5 look at Exhibit 3 [sic], it makes reference to a
6 December 8, 2017, email from TRS to Renton.
7 MS. SAND: Exhibit 51 is to Renton.
8 THE WITNESS: Let's see.
9 (Sotto voce comments.)
10 So, yeah, that looks good.
11 BY MR. EDWARDS:
12 Q. The -- in fact the report after the semicolon
13 simply verbatim repeats the text at the top of Exhibit
14 51; correct? This language we discovered that we had
15 received -- revised an earlier methodology for TracFone,
16 comma, one that did not include the upgraded population
17 estimation, period. Fortunately we have not sent the
18 one we sent to you to TracFone before the error was
19 discovered so this is the correct one attached.
20 That's the exact same text verbatim in both
21 documents?
22 A. I believe so.
23 Q. And the attachment to Exhibit 51 is referred to
24 as Renton TracFone3MethodologyA?
25 A. Uh-huh.
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 160
1 Q. You see that? .doc?
2 A. Uh-huh.
3 Q. And this A is a change to the naming convention
4 from the earlier methodology where we saw a version that
5 had the 3 without an A; correct?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. But this is only the narrative, there's not also
8 a A schedule; correct?
9 A. I believe so. It says I only attached one
10 thing.
11 Q. Okay. And then if we look at the third page of
12 the document beginning with Bates 693.
13 A. Okay.
14 Q. Now, other than still having the phrase "UUT" in
15 the first line, all reference to usage has been deleted
16 from this document; correct?
17 A. Well, not exactly. The... I just mention one
18 method of the companies that are post -- both post- and
19 prepaid companies sometimes will estimate their prepaid
20 revenue.
21 Q. Let me be a little bit more specific.
22 A. Okay.
23 Q. The assertions that the tax is imposed on usage
24 have been removed; correct?
25 A. Right. Decisions that they were properly done
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 161
1 on.
2 Q. And the characterization of the methodology as
3 estimating usage has also been removed; correct?
4 A. Right.
5 Q. Okay.
6 Were there revisions from the version 3 without
7 an A that were made to the description of the
8 populations ratio? And actually, with respect to this
9 question, let me -- if you could put Exhibit 16 side by
10 side with Exhibit 51.
11 A. I'm on Exhibit 51.
12 Q. Exhibit 16 contained the version 3 of the
13 methodology, and Exhibit 51 includes a version 3A of the
14 methodology.
15 A. Oh, okay. You're asking me to compare two
16 documents?
17 Q. I guess I'm asking you to lay them out side by
18 side in front of you right now.
19 A. Let me -- what those two are. Those two
20 documents.
21 Q. Exhibit 16 and Exhibit 51.
22 A. Okay.
23 Q. And each of them has a version of the
24 methodology as part of the exhibit.
25 A. 16, so I need to go backwards then.
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 162
1 Q. Go backwards to 16.
2 A. Okay.
3 Q. Keep 51 in front of you.
4 A. Okay. Messed up. Oh, maybe the --
5 Q. Do you have page --
6 (Inaudible due to crosstalk.)
7 THE WITNESS: Here we go.
8 BY MR. EDWARDS:
9 Q. Exhibit 16?
10 A. Right, I got it. You're looking at Bates number
11 667; right?
12 Q. Actually if you can turn the page to go to Bates
13 668.
14 A. Okay.
15 Q. Okay. So do you have 668 in front of you on one
16 side, and on the other side... 693. And if you -- and
17 where I want you to match up is if you look at the --
18 near the top of 668 it said, "Finding population
19 proportion." Do you see that on page 668?
20 A. Yes, uh-huh.
21 Q. If you look at the bottom of page 693, you see
22 the same thing, "Finding population proportion"?
23 A. Right.
24 Q. Immediately under both of them it says:
25 Population percentage is the percentage which compares
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 163
1 the city population and ZIP Code.
2 Do you see that?
3 A. Um, say that one more time.
4 Q. So the first line beneath each of those is
5 identical. And then I'm going to ask you to turn page
6 693 over to 694. And the -- and am I correct in
7 observing that the text at the top of page 694 matches
8 the balance of what we're seeing at page -- on page 668?
9 So from that paragraph that we started with, "Finding
10 population proportion," all the way down to where it
11 says, "Available information," that those line up and --
12 and they are the same text.
13 A. "Available information." I would think they
14 were, but I'll double-check.
15 Q. Yeah, if you start with "Available information,"
16 you go upwards from each of them with 668 and 694 side
17 by side. See that the text is the same?
18 A. Yeah.
19 Q. Isn't the cha- -- the difference between the
20 version 3 that was attached to 16 and version 3A that
21 was attached -- attached -- attached to Exhibit 51
22 wasn't a change in the population method description --
23 A. Huh-uh.
24 Q. -- it was the removal of the description of the
25 tax being imposed on usage; correct?
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 164
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Okay. So you would agree that your email in
3 Exhibit 51 mischaracterizes the revisions that are
4 reflected in the attachment?
5 A. Okay. So what email was it that you're
6 referring to that you're saying mischaracterized?
7 Q. 51. The email that -- that has the attachment
8 that we were just looking at.
9 A. (Reviews exhibit.)
10 That's not this or the one that had --
11 Q. The one that we were just looking at.
12 A. I get it. I get it.
13 Q. The difference between the two is not, as the
14 email text says, revising it to change the description
15 of the population ratio. The difference between the two
16 versions of the methodology relates only to eliminating
17 the discussion of the tax as being imposed on usage.
18 A. I... would have assumed that...
19 (Reviews exhibit.)
20 So you're saying that the attachment on August
21 8th wasn't the population improvement one? But it was a
22 usage? No, I think the usage is still [distorted
23 audio].
24 Q. What I'm -- to try to get you oriented, you had
25 versions unnumbered, number 2, and number 3. The only
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 165
1 changes between those versions were your changes in the
2 three different population methodologies. The
3 difference between version 3 and version 3A has nothing
4 to do with population change. That's where the change
5 was made to remove the description of the taxes being
6 imposed on usage.
7 A. Yeah. Yeah, so where were you saying that --
8 that an email mischaracterized it?
9 Q. Well, show me where in Exhibit 51 the email says
10 we made the change to -- to add the upgraded -- or to
11 change the usage. You had already changed the
12 population method. That was already done. This is not
13 making that --
14 A. No.
15 Q. -- change.
16 A. This is -- what date is this? Because...
17 December 8. Yeah. Yeah. (Laughter). I don't know
18 where... Okay. We apparently mischaracterized what we
19 were doing on that one.
20 Q. Might have been helpful to actually have a
21 conversation with me before we got to this point, huh?
22 A. Yeah. Okay. In other words, it would have been
23 nice if -- no, actually, I'm not with you yet. I think
24 my brain is starting to wear out. So... I'll just slow
25 down, see if I can --
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 166
1 Q. Would you like to take another five-minute
2 break?
3 A. I'm trying to decide whether I can ask for ten,
4 because I'm... I'm wearing out. How many hours have we
5 been at this?
6 Q. More than I had expected to be.
7 A. Yeah.
8 MS. SAND: Mr. Edwards.
9 MR. EDWARDS: Uh-huh.
10 MS. SAND: I did move my 3 o'clock to 4
11 o'clock and just wanted to check in with you about how
12 much longer you think given --
13 (Inaudible due to crosstalk.)
14 MR. EDWARDS: Unfortunately, Kari, the
15 answers that I've been getting make it very hard for me
16 to try to gauge how long this is going to take. It's
17 already gone well longer than I had expected. I would
18 be hopeful, but I'm not optimistic, that I would finish
19 by 4:00 at this point.
20 MS. SAND: Okay.
21 BY MR. EDWARDS:
22 Q. Ms. Crisp, it sounds like you feel like you need
23 a break. Let's take a short break for you. Is five
24 minutes enough or do you need ten? I don't want to
25 shortchange you on that.
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 167
1 A. I'll take ten.
2 Q. Okay. So let's take a ten-minute break. It's
3 3:10, so to 3:20.
4 (A break was taken
5 from 3:11 p.m. to 3:22 p.m.)
6 BY MR. EDWARDS:
7 Q. I'd like to move now to Exhibit 28. Bates
8 number 718 on the bottom of the first page.
9 A. Okay. Yeah, this is all screwed up.
10 718?
11 Q. Yes; correct.
12 A. (Reviews exhibit.)
13 Okay.
14 Q. And are you familiar with that email
15 transmitting TRS's responses to TracFone's possible
16 objections?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. I understand you were the primary drafter of
19 that document?
20 A. Yes, I was.
21 Q. Okay. Well, let's turn to Exhibit 29, which is
22 the -- the attachment to Exhibit 28. Do you have
23 Exhibit 29 in front of you?
24 A. Yes, I do.
25 Q. Okay.
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 168
1 (Inaudible due to crosstalk.)
2 THE WITNESS: It doesn't have Bates numbers
3 on it.
4 BY MR. EDWARDS:
5 Q. It does not, as you -- as we discussed during
6 your husband's deposition, the PDF version that was
7 produced to us that had Bates numbers on it was redacted
8 in its entirety. There was no wording available. So
9 the only version that had been produced to us was a Word
10 document version. So this is a printout of the Word
11 document version that we got as a Word file, and that's
12 why it doesn't have Bates numbers on it.
13 A. Okay.
14 Q. And in that regard, there is some highlighting
15 on this document. It came to my office this way from
16 Ms. Sand's office. I'm assuming that they did not put
17 the highlighting on it, so I -- I have assumed that TRS
18 created the highlighting on this document. Can you
19 confirm whether or not that those are your highlights?
20 A. They probably are.
21 Q. And at the beginning of this document starts,
22 "Introduction: Authority to tax telephone businesses."
23 And then it starts with what appears to be an indented
24 quote of the statute RCW 35.21.712. Why did you choose
25 to start with that particular statute?
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 169
1 A. Well, actually I should have quoted a 35A
2 version of this. But it basically is the authority to
3 tax a telephone business.
4 Q. Now, is the next part that's also indented that
5 reflects RCW 82.16.010, that's not part of the same
6 statute, that's a different statute?
7 A. Yes, yes.
8 Q. Okay. What -- what aspect of the quoted part of
9 that first statute is the part that authorizes the
10 imposition of -- of telephone utility tax?
11 A. Okay. It says that... any city which imposes a
12 license, fee or tax on a business activity engaged in a
13 telephone business and measured by gross receipts is how
14 we did the audit. And as you can see, Renton does
15 impose a utility tax for telephone business at a rate of
16 6 percent.
17 Q. I'm asking how this language grants Renton the
18 authority. As I read, it appears to require a uniform
19 rate for all telephone business. A single rate. Isn't
20 that what that specific quoted provision does?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. It's actually other statutory language that
23 grants the authority, and that language hasn't been
24 included here?
25 A. Let me look at the --
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 170
1 Q. That --
2 A. -- statute really quick.
3 Q. No, I'd rather you not. I'd like you to focus
4 on the document that I'm -- I'm asking you about.
5 A. Well, it's about the same as this one. Okay.
6 Give me your question again because I'm not following
7 that.
8 Q. We'll move on to a different question.
9 A. Okay.
10 Q. The... the quoted provision 35.21.712 talks
11 about a tax on the telephone business. Do you see --
12 you see that in the first line?
13 A. Uh-huh.
14 Q. And you've excerpted a -- a statute defining
15 telephone business. And it defines telephone business
16 as the business of providing network telephone service.
17 Do you see that?
18 A. Uh-huh. Which is the same as 35A. They
19 basically have different numbers they're going to.
20 Q. I'm looking at 80 -- the question from 82.16.010
21 which defines telephone business as the business of
22 providing network telephone service.
23 A. Yes. Yes, that's -- that's the same as the one
24 referred to in 35A, so we're good.
25 Q. I need you to listen more carefully to the
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 171
1 questions that I'm asking you. I'm not asking you about
2 35A.
3 Do you see that 82.16.010 defines telephone
4 business?
5 A. Yes, it does.
6 Q. And does it define telephone business as the
7 business of providing network telephone service?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Does 82.16.010 also define network telephone
10 service?
11 A. No, that's in 82.16.010 ii -- oh, you asked --
12 you actually specifically asked does 82.16.010 also
13 define telephone service; correct? And my --
14 Q. Network telephone --
15 (Inaudible due to crosstalk.)
16 THE WITNESS: -- telephone service, and my
17 answer is yes, it does. It's not here, but it does.
18 BY MR. EDWARDS:
19 Q. And that's my next question is: Since it -- you
20 know, you've got telephone businesses defined. You
21 quote the definition of telephone business. Telephone
22 business is defined as something else which is also
23 defined, but you haven't quoted the definition of
24 network telephone service. Why?
25 A. I neglected to do that.
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 172
1 Q. Wouldn't it be helpful to know what network
2 telephone service is in order to --
3 A. Very helpful.
4 Q. -- in order to analyze whether TracFone is
5 engaged in network telephone service?
6 A. Very helpful.
7 Q. But you chose not to do that?
8 A. Apparently I did choose not to do that.
9 Q. Okay.
10 The -- the next provision is an excerpt from RMC
11 5-11-1. Is that part of the Renton Municipal Code?
12 A. Yes, it is.
13 Q. Okay.
14 And if I go in about the middle, there's three
15 ellipses between -- before it has telephone business in
16 all caps. Have you omitted part of the text of that
17 ordinance?
18 A. Which text is -- I mean, obviously I can't do
19 the whole code or the whole section.
20 Q. I'm just asking to confirm that the three dots
21 are an indicator that there's text that has been omitted
22 in quoting the ordinance. That's a fairly standard
23 protocol and I'm assuming that that's why you have those
24 three dots there.
25 A. I --
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 173
1 Q. I am not asking what was omitted. I'm just
2 asking you to confirm that there's been something
3 excluded between the 6 percent and the TELEPHONE
4 BUSINESS.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. What are you looking at?
7 A. I'm looking at the code, the one that I -- I
8 studied. It's a picture of the code. It's -- it's
9 the -- it's the same as this. It's more complete. I --
10 my purpose of putting this down was just to kind of set
11 the tone for the paper. It wasn't to educate Renton
12 on -- on the code.
13 Q. TELEPHONE BUSINESS begins by -- then says, "The
14 providing by any person of access to the local telephone
15 network." Do you see that?
16 A. Uh-huh.
17 Q. I'm sorry, that phrase has been highlighted and
18 you are the one that highlighted that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What is your understanding of the meaning of
21 "providing access to the local telephone network"?
22 A. It's funny to have the word "the" in there.
23 (Sotto voce comments.)
24 Q. What are you looking at?
25 A. I'm looking at the code.
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 174
1 Q. When you say "the code," what do you mean?
2 A. Our --
3 Q. Can you show me on your screen what you're
4 looking at?
5 A. RMC 5-11-3 definitions.
6 Q. That's a printout? Where did you get that from?
7 A. I -- I printed -- put it on a document and
8 printed out so I would have it at my fingertips when you
9 ask questions so I could answer correctly.
10 Q. Is that version of the code part of TRS's audit
11 file for the TracFone audit?
12 A. I made that. I put it together for this
13 deposition.
14 Q. When did you make it?
15 A. Within... let's see, did I make it before?
16 Probably made it before the Tuesday that Mr. Crisp...
17 deposed.
18 Q. Within the last few weeks?
19 A. Oh, yeah.
20 Q. How did you find it?
21 A. I just got it off of the Internet that gives the
22 Renton Municipal Code.
23 Q. Isn't it true that the Renton Municipal Code for
24 the telephone utility tax was completely rewritten in
25 November of 2019?
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 175
1 A. Completely?
2 Q. Yes, completely.
3 A. It was completely? I think I -- I checked to
4 make sure these were still there.
5 Q. So you're looking at what's there within the
6 last few weeks, not what was there during the audit
7 period?
8 A. That's a good point. They look like they're the
9 same. I thought that the -- the definitions didn't
10 change. So -- and so this -- if I wrote this -- this on
11 page -- what do you call it. It wasn't in a deposition
12 that you received. But back when, you know, a while
13 back, then it doesn't look like there's there -- the
14 essentials have changed at all.
15 Q. Is the numbering still the same? This is part
16 of 5-11-1?
17 A. Uh-huh. Oh, that's interesting, because --
18 let's see. This is 5-11-1. Oh, and now the definitions
19 have been moved to 5-11-3. Oh, but the -- okay.
20 (Sotto voce comments.)
21 Okay, yeah. So they moved to a different
22 section, but looks like they're essentially the same.
23 Q. Okay. I'm going to ask you to stop looking at
24 other documents besides the document that I'm asking you
25 a question about.
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 176
1 A. Okay.
2 MS. SAND: Is there a question pending?
3 MR. EDWARDS: Not yet. (Laughter). I'm
4 trying to collect my -- my thoughts right now.
5 BY MR. EDWARDS:
6 Q. Looking at Exhibit 29, near the bottom of the
7 page there is a heading labeled "A. Possible TracFone
8 objection." Do you see that?
9 A. Yes, I do.
10 Q. It says, "TracFone has claimed in the past that
11 they do not need to pay any taxes because they are not
12 required to pay tax for services purchased for the
13 purpose of resale..." Do you see that?
14 A. Yes, I do.
15 Q. How did you learn that?
16 A. It's in an email -- mails between TRS and
17 Mr. Ford. He's... he's made that claim, and I rebutted
18 it in December 11th, 2015.
19 Q. What are you looking at now... you got that
20 date?
21 A. It's a copy of the -- the email.
22 Q. A copy of an email from you to Mr. Ford dated
23 December 11?
24 A. Yeah, it's the response to one that he sent us
25 saying that he doesn't owe -- owe the taxes for.
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 177
1 Q. Have you produced that email to -- to us yet?
2 A. Probably not, because it -- it was one of those
3 emails that you already had in your possession. I mean,
4 you're -- that you're --
5 Q. Is it also one of those emails that you're going
6 to need to redact before you provide a copy of it?
7 A. I don't believe so, no. I don't see anything in
8 this email that would need to be redacted if I send it
9 to you.
10 Q. What is the date of that email again?
11 A. December 11th, 2015. I gave him quite a long
12 explanation how doing it for resale was not, you know,
13 an issue and -- and why. I kind of took it for both
14 directions that the, you know, statute is protecting the
15 people they were buying -- contracting the network
16 services from from being taxed, and why the retail
17 stores, you know, didn't protect you and the statute.
18 Of course this is legal stuff and I'm an
19 auditor, but I did my best at the time to explain to
20 TracFone, I was hoping to their satisfaction, that they
21 actually do owe the tax and this objection of resale was
22 not -- it just -- it -- it didn't protect them.
23 Q. Based on your opinion of your analysis of the
24 law?
25 A. Right. And I'm just an auditor, but my analysis
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 178
1 of the law. I had to know it to some extent in order to
2 do the audit of course.
3 Q. Now, you make a reference to RCW 35.21.714
4 expressly excluding charges to another
5 telecommunications company --
6 A. Uh-huh.
7 Q. -- as defined by RCW 80.04.010. You see that?
8 A. Uh-huh.
9 Q. It would appear that the text right below that
10 paragraph is a quote from RCW 35.21.714; is that
11 correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Okay. Do you also quote the definition of
14 telecommunications company in 80.04.010?
15 A. No, I didn't.
16 Q. But you concluded that the sales were not
17 charges to another telecommunications company as defined
18 by that statute without considering what the statute
19 definition is?
20 MS. SAND: Objection to the form of the
21 question.
22 Go ahead and answer, Mrs. Crisp.
23 THE WITNESS: In my opinion, I think it can
24 be -- this objection was right out of the emails with
25 Mr. Ford could be... could be returned just pretty
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 179
1 simply by -- by the fact that, I mean, intuitive
2 knowledge that -- that the retail stores are not
3 telecommunications companies, and that --
4 BY MR. EDWARDS:
5 Q. Do you know how "telecommunications company" is
6 defined by statute?
7 A. I do. Not sure that I had as deep an
8 understanding then as I do now in preparing for this
9 deposition, but telecommunications companies can
10 actually provide access to a telephone network as
11 defined as transmission of telecommunications. So, in
12 other words, put it in layman's terms, a
13 telecommunications company actually provides the means
14 to make a phone call, whereas I believe that the retail
15 stores only provide the means to connect to someone who
16 can give them that access. They -- they don't have a
17 business agreement with the carriers. So that's why I
18 think that TracFone's a telecommunications company. I
19 mean, they do have telephone in their name, you know,
20 the word "phone". But also I -- that's why I believe
21 that the retail stores are not another
22 telecommunications company.
23 Q. But if they had "telephone" in their name, they
24 would be?
25 A. (Laughter). Well, Safeway telephone service
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 180
1 would be suspicious. So, yeah, but TracFone, that's the
2 cool thing they do. They contract with these networks
3 and give people access to networks. I mean, there's --
4 you know, it's one of the biggest networks in the world
5 between all the places that TracFone has contracted
6 with, and --
7 Q. How many of those contracts did you review in
8 the course of the audit?
9 A. Now I got that from your web -- from TracFone's
10 website. They say that they connect you to this huge
11 network and I believe they make even --
12 Q. Right now let's -- let's get refocused. The --
13 we're looking at a statute and analysis. The -- you've
14 characterized a claim that TracFone has made, and you're
15 testifying here that this particular characterization is
16 derived from an email that you received from Mr. Ford on
17 December 11 of 2015. Did you set out the -- the text of
18 his argument in the email or is this your -- your own
19 characterization of what his argument was?
20 A. I had something to say now. It's gone. It's
21 getting late. I --
22 Q. The question, is the language here a quote from
23 his email or is it something that's not a quote?
24 A. No, when I say TracFone has claimed in the past
25 that they do not need to pay taxes because they're
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 181
1 required to pay tax, that -- that's the truth and it's
2 my words.
3 Q. Did you -- but you're testifying today this is
4 your characterization of some -- of an email that
5 Mr. Crisp [sic] sent to you on December 11 of 2015; is
6 that correct?
7 A. Mr. Ford.
8 Q. Mr. Ford, excuse me, yes.
9 And this is -- but the -- the rest of that is
10 not the refutation that was included in your response to
11 his email, or is it?
12 A. Probably not, because even though I knew that
13 this was a TracFone objection and I'd encountered it in
14 the emails in the Renton audit, I was free to come up
15 with a different way of responding, maybe a little bit
16 more code-centric. But on the day that he gave it to
17 me, I -- I did my best. It's not a good legal treaties
18 [sic], but I think it's enough that he should have
19 agreed with me that, you know, he was -- that the resale
20 provision didn't help them at all. And the resale
21 provision does, you know, suggest that provisio [sic]
22 and, you know, the definition of telephone network
23 service and all that, but --
24 (Inaudible due to crosstalk.)
25 BY MR. EDWARDS:
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 182
1 Q. Again, I would -- I really would appreciate it
2 if you would limit your answers and not go on these
3 speeches.
4 A. (Laughter).
5 Q. The -- so rather than repeating the response
6 that you gave Mr. Crisp [sic] --
7 A. Mr. --
8 Q. -- in December 2015, your outline presents a
9 different response to Mr. Crisp's [sic] 2015 objection?
10 A. You keep saying Mr. Crisp.
11 Q. I'm sorry, yes, you're -- Mr. Ford. I
12 apologize.
13 A. You might be getting tired too.
14 Q. I am getting tired, for sure.
15 MS. SAND: (Laughter).
16 THE WITNESS: So, yeah, I was trying to
17 think of what objections to present to Renton and --
18 BY MR. EDWARDS:
19 Q. Again --
20 (Inaudible due to crosstalk.)
21 BY MR. EDWARDS:
22 Q. -- you're going afield from my question.
23 A. Uh-huh.
24 Q. You responded to Mr. Ford's objection in 2015.
25 In 2018, three years later, you're representing that
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 183
1 objection, but you're presenting a different response to
2 the objection than the one you made in 2018; is that
3 correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Okay. See, because you had three years more to
6 think about it and your objection here is a better
7 formulated objection?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Okay.
10 If we look at RCW 35.21.714 as it's quoted in
11 Exhibit 29, you've highlighted, it says, "... the City
12 shall not impose the fee or tax on that portion of
13 network telephone service which represents charges to
14 another telecommunications company..." You have that
15 phrase "charges to another telecommunications
16 company" --
17 A. Uh-huh.
18 Q. -- highlighted; correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And so is the objection that you're referring to
21 focused on this specific provision that you can't tax
22 charges to another telecommunications company?
23 A. Okay. I remember everything but the first
24 phrase of your question.
25 Q. Okay. Do you understand the objection that you
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 184
1 are responding to as an objection that is focused on
2 this first phrase, you cannot impose tax on charges to
3 another telecommunications company?
4 A. Right, that's what I understood Mr. Ford to be
5 talking about.
6 Q. Okay. After that highlighted phrase, there are
7 other items that are also identified as things that a
8 city cannot tax; is that correct?
9 A. Right.
10 Q. Connecting fees, switching fees, care -- carrier
11 access charges?
12 A. Uh-huh.
13 Q. You see all those things?
14 A. Yep.
15 Q. And then when you get further, at the very
16 bottom of the page, and it says, "or charges," and
17 you've highlighted "charges," and it goes over to the
18 next page so that the phrase is, "charges for network
19 telephone service that is purchased for the purpose of
20 resale." You see that?
21 A. Uh-huh.
22 Q. So you've highlighted two different prohibitions
23 in RCW 21 -- 35.21.714; correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. The objection only focuses on the first of those
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 185
1 two prohibitions; correct?
2 A. Yes, but I believe the second one, part B --
3 Q. Well, we'll get to part B later.
4 A. Okay.
5 Q. So what I -- when we're -- at the top of the
6 second page, the response here, the items 1 and 2 are a
7 response to objection A that is focused exclusively on
8 your characterization of Mr. Ford's objection related to
9 charges to another telecommunications company; is that
10 correct?
11 A. Could you say that very specific -- one more
12 time. I want to listen because I'm --
13 Q. Your responses on page 2, which are numbered
14 response 1 and 2 --
15 A. Uh-huh.
16 Q. -- those responses are responses to the
17 objection above in A; is that correct?
18 A. Yeah, I believe so.
19 Q. And the objection in A only relates to the
20 phrase about another telecommunications company;
21 correct?
22 A. I believe so, yes.
23 Q. Okay.
24 And your first response is: The
25 telecommunications company referred to is whoever
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 186
1 TracFone is buying the service from.
2 Why is the focus on buying from rather than
3 selling to?
4 A. The charges to another telecommunications
5 company I believe was talking about the T-Mobile sold
6 the airtime to TracFone; therefore, T-Mobile is tax-free
7 in this situation.
8 Q. Why is T-Mobile tax-free?
9 A. Because they --
10 MS. SAND: Wait, wait, wait.
11 Object to the extent it calls for a legal
12 conclusion.
13 Go ahead and answer.
14 THE WITNESS: Okay. So I state once again
15 that I'm an auditor; I'm not a lawyer. But the way I
16 look at this is that I felt that -- that Mr. Ford was
17 trying to insinuate that the charges to another
18 telecommunications company set them scot-free, and I'm
19 going, well, the charges to another telecommunications
20 company is the charges that AT&T or T-Mobile or Verizon
21 charged -- got from TracFone, because they're the other
22 telecommunications company in this -- in this --
23 BY MR. EDWARDS:
24 Q. How did you determine that TracFone is a
25 telecommunications company as defined by RCW 80.04.010?
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 187
1 A. Once again, I look at this as an auditor. I
2 just go back to the simple thing that TracFone hooks the
3 people up to a telephone network so they can make phone
4 calls. They -- it's the transmission, I believe, in the
5 code that -- that matters when it says the tel- --
6 telephone network is that ability to transmit
7 information, something that TracFone does. They --
8 (Inaudible due to crosstalk.)
9 BY MR. EDWARDS:
10 Q. It's TracFone's operation of transmission
11 facilities that makes them a telecommunications company?
12 A. Yeah, I mean, you know, operate, I know that you
13 guys say that you don't operate it, but you certainly do
14 exercise control over, you know, on behalf of your
15 customers. You keep -- you provide access to that so
16 that they can make telephone calls. That makes you a
17 telecommunications company in my opinion.
18 Q. And your opinion is based on your years of
19 experience as a auditor of city utility taxes on a
20 contingent fee basis?
21 A. My opinion is based on my understanding of
22 the -- the state and municipal code and Renton's code.
23 Q. But you make that opinion without any reference
24 or analysis of the statutory definition of
25 telecommunications company in --
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 188
1 (Inaudible due to crosstalk.)
2 THE WITNESS: I've got that. I can read it
3 to you, but you don't want me to.
4 BY MR. EDWARDS:
5 Q. I don't want you to read it.
6 A. (Laughter).
7 Q. In the document that you've done here, did you
8 make any reference to that statute? Did you cite to it?
9 Did you analyze what its requirements are?
10 A. I didn't. And -- and it's a mistake to call
11 this a legal brief. You know, it's not.
12 Q. I didn't call it --
13 (Inaudible due to crosstalk.)
14 BY MR. EDWARDS:
15 Q. I called it a document.
16 A. Okay.
17 Q. And it's titled an outline.
18 A. So you're correct, it's -- it's a document and
19 it's not written by a lawyer. I just was putting
20 together what my thoughts were on it. Renton could
21 accept or reject those things. I still believe I was
22 right in essence. And yes, I did not write down every
23 definition that I came to my conclusion with.
24 Q. Your second response says, "... TracFone is
25 widely acknowledged as a telecommunications provider..."
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 189
1 What is the factual basis for that statement?
2 A. Again, as I've said many times during this
3 deposition, somebody wants the ability to call people
4 with a telephone, TracFone can -- can help them out.
5 They can become a TracFone customer and make telephone
6 calls.
7 Q. Again, the -- this says "widely acknowledged".
8 What is the basis for your assertion that there is wide
9 acknowledgment of TracFone as a telecommunications
10 provider?
11 A. Well, I think that if you look at TracFone's...
12 gross revenue in this country, there's a lot of people
13 who depend on TracFone to make phone calls. And they
14 are paying for it because it works.
15 Q. How does that make it widely acknowledged to be
16 a telecommunications provider?
17 A. If they didn't believe that TracFone could
18 provide telecommunications, they wouldn't pay for the
19 service.
20 Q. How many TracFone customers did you interview?
21 A. I tell you I just went based on your -- your --
22 Q. How many customers did you interview?
23 A. Zero.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 (Inaudible due to crosstalk.)
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 190
1 BY MR. EDWARDS:
2 Q. That's the answer to the question that I asked.
3 Below that you say: According to Bloomberg,
4 quote, TracFone Wireless, Inc. provides prepaid wireless
5 phone services, end quote.
6 Where did you get that quote from?
7 A. Got it off the Internet. I... I must have gone
8 to some article talking about what TracFone does. I
9 understand it's not authoritative. This is not a legal
10 brief. It's just not going to be as good.
11 Q. Okay. Let's move on to item B, and you identify
12 a second objection. What was your basis for identifying
13 this as an objection asserted by TracFone? Is there
14 another specific email from Mr. Ford?
15 A. It's the same email. When he -- when he made
16 that objection, I answered him both directions. Why
17 AT&T -- this is talking about AT&T not being taxable,
18 and why TracFone still has to -- is the end -- you know,
19 the one that's taxable here, that they didn't sell to
20 another telecommunications session. So the same
21 objection I responded to both A and B, both -- both
22 ways.
23 The -- that objection could be shut down that --
24 that it didn't say that they weren't -- that you -- that
25 TracFone wasn't... wasn't taxable. I really made a good
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 191
1 effort to try to get TracFone on -- on the page that I
2 thought was correct in this.
3 Q. And you've highlighted again the phrase "charges
4 for network telephone service that is purchased for the
5 purpose of resale."
6 A. Uh-huh.
7 Q. Are you familiar with that phrase, "purpose of
8 resale," as a tax matter?
9 A. Yes, I believe so.
10 Q. Are you familiar with the difference between a
11 retail sale and a wholesale sale for tax purposes?
12 A. Now, I haven't done a whole lot of B&O audits,
13 and, you know, a business and occupation --
14 Q. Yes-or-no question. Are you familiar with the
15 difference or not?
16 A. Say only from a layman's perspective.
17 Q. Are you aware that a wholesale sale is a sale
18 for the -- for the purpose of resale?
19 MS. SAND: I'm going to object to the extent
20 this calls for a legal conclusion, and also it's not
21 relevant for utility tax.
22 BY MR. EDWARDS:
23 Q. You can answer the question.
24 A. I can? Okay. So I believe TracFone -- in fact
25 we actually got recently a -- something from TracFone
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 192
1 that showed the -- I think it's wholesale certificate.
2 And it says that -- and I think it was the Walmart one,
3 that said that they had sold to -- to the store, the
4 retail store, telephones, accessories, and... airtime
5 cards. It does not say that you sold airtime, so once
6 again I feel that TracFone is a telecommunications
7 company and the retail stores sell the cards.
8 Q. I'm not asking what your opinion is of -- and
9 why you're justifying the assessment that you issued.
10 A. Okay.
11 Q. The question was whether you're familiar with
12 the distinction in tax provisions between wholesale
13 sales and retail sales, and whether you're familiar that
14 tax codes distinguish wholesale sales from retail sales
15 by the description of being purchased for the purpose of
16 resale.
17 MS. SAND: Same objection.
18 Go ahead and answer.
19 THE WITNESS: Once again, you're talking
20 about a complete --
21 BY MR. EDWARDS:
22 Q. You either know it or you don't. It's a
23 yes-or-no question.
24 A. Okay. I'll have to hear it one more time, the
25 specifics.
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 193
1 MR. EDWARDS: Can you please read it back.
2 (Question was read back.)
3 THE WITNESS: I'm fully aware that the
4 utility tax provisions do not discriminate between
5 wholesale and resale -- retail.
6 BY MR. EDWARDS:
7 Q. Do you see the phrase that you've highlighted
8 that says "purchased for the purpose of resale"?
9 A. Uh-huh. Yes.
10 Q. Is your seeing that in that statute your only
11 experience with that phrase?
12 A. With respect to utility taxes, yes.
13 Q. I'm not talking -- I did not make that
14 limitation.
15 A. Okay. As a layman, no, I've seen resales at
16 garage sales.
17 Q. You're familiar with B&O taxes?
18 A. Somewhat. Not -- not much.
19 Q. Are there different B&O classifications for the
20 activity of wholesaling and the activity of retailing?
21 A. I -- that's out of my lane. I do not believe I
22 have actually completed a B&O audit. I've helped
23 inputting and that kind of thing, but I haven't actually
24 done a B&O audit.
25 Q. I'm going to -- your response starts at number
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 194
1 1, "TracFone is not selling telecommunications..." I
2 find that an interesting choice of words since the
3 phrase that's in the highlighted provision above says
4 "charges for network telephone services."
5 A. Yeah, it would have been better to use that
6 term -- that phraseology, but don't they basically mean
7 the same thing?
8 Q. That's my question to you. Do they mean the
9 same thing or not? Why did you use a different term?
10 A. Because I was being imprecise. (Laughter).
11 Q. It is -- is it important to be precise when
12 applying tax provisions?
13 A. Definitely, but my... To put a application in
14 this case was correct everything I -- I applied.
15 Q. Does the... code, the Renton Municipal Code and
16 the Washington's tax statutes define precisely what is
17 and is not subject to utility tax?
18 A. Yes, I believe so.
19 Q. So if you don't follow precisely the language of
20 the governing code and statutes, do you run the risk of
21 treating something as taxable that is not provided to be
22 taxable in the precise language of the code and
23 statutes?
24 A. I'm not a lawyer. If I was, I would probably
25 have been much more precise. But I -- I could read you
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 195
1 definitions if you'd let me read them.
2 Q. I don't want you to read --
3 (Inaudible due to crosstalk.)
4 BY MR. EDWARDS:
5 Q. I'm not asking you to argue with me about why
6 you're right. I'm asking you to answer my questions.
7 A. Right.
8 Q. Is there a risk that being imprecise in the
9 application of things that are explicitly defined by
10 statute results in asserting tax differently than what
11 the statutory language actually provides for?
12 A. There's a very small risk, yes.
13 Q. So when you say, "TracFone is not selling
14 telecommunications to companies such as Target for
15 resale," are you saying -- would it be possible to
16 substitute the phrase "network telephone service" so
17 what you're saying is Target [sic] is not selling
18 network telephone service as defined by statute to
19 companies such as Target for resale?
20 MS. SAND: I think you meant TracFone at the
21 beginning.
22 MR. EDWARDS: TracFone, yes.
23 THE WITNESS: (Laughter). If I understood
24 your question correctly, yes. Maybe you should repeat
25 it again.
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 196
1 (Inaudible due to crosstalk.)
2 BY MR. EDWARDS:
3 Q. In your first sentence, would it be possible to
4 substitute the phrase "network telephone service" for
5 "telecommunications" without changing the meaning of
6 what you intended to convey?
7 A. I believe so.
8 Q. Does TracFone sell airtime cards to companies
9 such as Target and Walmart?
10 A. I believe so.
11 Q. Do those companies sell TracFone airtime cards
12 that they purchased from TracFone to others?
13 A. Yes, they do.
14 Q. When an individual walks into a Target or a
15 Walmart and purchases a TracFone airtime card, who do
16 they pay the money to?
17 A. They pay the retail store for the card.
18 Q. Is that sale subject to sales tax?
19 A. Can't tell you. That's outside my expertise.
20 Q. If the sale was subject to sales tax, who would
21 collect the sales tax from the customer?
22 A. The retail store.
23 Q. Does the customer who buys a TracFone airtime
24 card from a retail store make any additional payment for
25 network telephone service in order to use -- or let's
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 197
1 just -- make any additional payment at all in order to
2 be able to use that airtime card?
3 A. The payment that they make to the retail stores
4 covers what TracFone would consider their payment.
5 Q. I don't understand what you just said.
6 A. Do you want me to explain it to you?
7 Q. Yes, please.
8 A. Okay. So the... TracFone sells to the retail
9 store for a certain price. Now, that price is going to
10 be way and beyond the -- the value of the card. In fact
11 the card is -- is pretty much worthless except that it
12 has the power to connect the customer to TracFone. Then
13 that person makes the -- the purchase, the -- the end
14 user, customer, makes the purchase of the card, that
15 money is not just for a piece of plastic. It actually
16 goes back to covering TracFone's fee. It's -- it's just
17 here's a person that's --
18 (Inaudible due to crosstalk.)
19 BY MR. EDWARDS:
20 Q. Let's stop there. How do you know what you just
21 described to me? Where did you learn those facts?
22 A. (Laughter). These questions are so... These
23 are reasonable conclusions based on --
24 Q. Speculate. You don't know; isn't that correct?
25 A. I suppose you could call it a speculation, one
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 198
1 that anybody would come to.
2 Q. When TracFone sells an airtime card to a
3 retailer, does the retailer pay TracFone just for the
4 value of the plastic in that airtime card?
5 A. No, if they charge for the -- they actually
6 collect the money that TracFone makes on that sale for
7 TracFone. So that amount of money that they charge is
8 way in excess of the cost of the card, the piece of
9 plastic with TracFone's name.
10 Q. What do you mean by they collect for TracFone?
11 A. When they go to the -- the customer and they
12 charge an amount, the customer doesn't say, That's
13 outlandish, this is just a plastic card. They're
14 thinking, Oh, good, if I use this card, then I can use
15 TracFone's network.
16 Q. What does that have to do with collecting?
17 When -- when TracFone charges -- charges Walmart X
18 dollars, let's call it $40 for an airtime card --
19 A. Uh-huh.
20 Q. -- what does Walmart -- Walmart pays that $40
21 because that's the wholesale price for the airtime card;
22 correct?
23 A. Uh-huh.
24 Q. Then Walmart is gonna' set its own retail price
25 for that airtime card; correct?
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 199
1 A. I would think so, but, you know, as you were
2 saying that I'm just inferring. (Laughter). But yes,
3 that sounds exactly right.
4 Q. So those are two separate transactions; correct?
5 A. Uh-huh.
6 Q. Once Walmart's bought an airtime card from --
7 from TracFone for $40, that's a whole [distorted audio].
8 Walmart owes that $40 to TracFone regardless of whether
9 Walmart sells that airtime card for $50 or $30; correct?
10 A. Uh-huh.
11 Q. It's not dependent on Walmart collecting
12 something from the retail customer on behalf of
13 TracFone; correct?
14 A. I agree. I agree.
15 I haven't seen the contracts, obviously, but --
16 (Inaudible due to crosstalk.)
17 BY MR. EDWARDS:
18 Q. Not a question in front of you right now.
19 A. Okay.
20 Q. Under number 1, the third bullet point down, it
21 says, "Upon activation, the customers also enter into a
22 contract with TracFone, not Target..." How do you know
23 that statement to be factually true?
24 A. I got that from the TracFone website. They are
25 very clear about the fact that, you know, when you sign
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 200
1 up, you basically have a relationship with TracFone.
2 That they can control your phone; they choose the
3 network you're going to use; they --
4 Q. Do you download any of the -- did you download
5 anything that you saw on TracFone's website?
6 A. Did I download anything?
7 Q. Yes, do you have a record of what it is you
8 looked at at TracFone's website that you believe
9 supports this factual statement?
10 A. Let's see if I can find that. Yeah. Well,
11 okay. Ask me the question again. I'm not retaining
12 things for as long as --
13 Q. Do you have a record of any type that you have
14 retained that supports the factual statement that we've
15 been looking at?
16 A. Oh, actually in -- we have it in here.
17 Q. And what are you looking at?
18 A. I'm looking at the exhibit you gave us that
19 doesn't have a Bates number, the Renton outline. And so
20 we're talking about the purpose of resale.
21 Q. No, we're talking about the third bullet point
22 on number 1 at the bottom of the second page, the
23 phrase -- the sentence that says: Upon activation, the
24 customer also -- the customers also enter into a
25 contract with TracFone, not Target.
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 201
1 I'm trying to understand the factual support you
2 have for making that contention.
3 A. I can say we may not have put that in anyplace
4 but in our heads. (Laughter). Now since we've been
5 preparing for this deposition, we have made some copies
6 of the TracFone -- what it says in TracFone, but I don't
7 believe I have a copy of it anywhere. So I'll have to
8 tell you from memory. But --
9 Q. Hold on. Let -- let -- let's stop there. You
10 previously testified that your basis for making the
11 factual statement was information that you learned from
12 looking at TracFone's website.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Am I correct in understanding that, throughout
15 the course of the conduct of the audit, you never
16 created a record of what you looked at on the Internet
17 at all; is that correct?
18 A. You know, I can't tell you absolutely certain,
19 but if it wasn't in the -- these exhibits or the -- you
20 know, the... the things that we've submitted to you,
21 then we didn't.
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. But I -- we -- I remember it well and I've
24 copied and pasted it since in preparing for the --
25 Q. Hold on. Again, please. So the only records
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 202
1 that you created during the course of the audit have
2 already been produced to us?
3 A. Right.
4 Q. There is nothing else that was created at the
5 time?
6 A. As far as I know, we searched all our folders
7 and we went to -- you know, and I did not send you the
8 emails I believed you already had. But I can't remember
9 a location that -- that that would have been if it
10 wasn't in the emails.
11 Q. So at this point you intend to rely on a
12 printout of something that you looked at on TracFone's
13 website recently to support the factual assertion you
14 made back in 2018?
15 A. Well, the fact is that I had -- we had read
16 their website. We -- we went over it and talked about
17 it.
18 Q. Talked -- talked about it with who?
19 A. With each other, Mr. Crisp and I. And I believe
20 we brought it up to -- to Renton, but I don't know if
21 we -- we did at what point. But it would be in the
22 email train if we did.
23 Q. The next bullet point says, "Target acts as an
24 intermediator for TracFone."
25 A. Intermediate -- ary. Intermediary.
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 203
1 Q. It actually said intermediator.
2 A. Oh, sorry.
3 Q. O-r. I'm reading directly from the exhibit.
4 A. Spell check did that to me. Okay.
5 Q. That's your term?
6 A. Yeah, I like the term intermediary because it
7 connects two people without actually gaining ownership.
8 But that's how I look at it. It's not --
9 Q. Okay.
10 A. -- the legal team has -- has put their sanction
11 on that.
12 Q. When you say "the legal team," who are you
13 referring to?
14 A. Well, Kari and maybe Garth. I don't know. He's
15 part of the legal team I think. Is it Garth? That's
16 his name?
17 Q. So when you use the term intermed- --
18 intermediator here, you are asserting that Target never
19 takes ownership of the airtime card?
20 A. No, not the card. They take ownership of the
21 card. What they don't take ownership is the acc- -- the
22 access to the airtime or the airtime that -- that
23 TracFone contracts to provide. They never take
24 ownership of that.
25 Q. How do you make that determination?
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 204
1 A. Well, I understand that TracFone is not
2 registered with the FCC. You -- you know, a lot of
3 this --
4 Q. What's the significance of that?
5 A. From -- from just a basic understanding of
6 what's going on here. It's not a legal -- I can't --
7 I'm not a lawyer. I can't make a legal determination
8 here, but --
9 Q. Well, you've repeatedly told me that you've done
10 this legally correctly and I should believe you.
11 A. (Laughter). Well, I think it's --
12 Q. I don't care whether you're a lawyer. I'm
13 trying to understand why I should believe you've done
14 this correctly.
15 MS. SAND: Object to the extent that's
16 argumentative. I mean, I think she's trying to answer
17 and you just keep asking the same question over and
18 over.
19 MR. EDWARDS: No, I disagree. I think she's
20 trying to justify what she did, not answer my questions.
21 THE WITNESS: Ask the question one more
22 time. Maybe I'm not hearing you correctly. That's a
23 possibility.
24 BY MR. EDWARDS:
25 Q. Let's move on to the next sentence here.
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 205
1 We're -- we are woefully long on time here. This has
2 been painful.
3 A. (Laughter).
4 Q. The next sentence says: Purchasing an access
5 card is not the same as purchasing telephone service.
6 Do you see that? It's the next-to-last sentence
7 at the very bottom of the page.
8 A. Oh, again, right after the intermediary mistake.
9 Okay. Right, I still agree with that.
10 Q. I'm not asking you to agree with it. You wrote
11 it. The question is: What is the basis for your making
12 that statement?
13 A. (Reviews exhibit.)
14 Perhaps Renton should get some of these
15 contracts and -- or ask for contracts that --
16 Q. I -- I'm not asking what should be done now.
17 I'm asking you to explain what basis you had for writing
18 what you wrote.
19 A. And I have to say that it seems so obvious to me
20 that I can't understand how to answer your question.
21 I'm sorry, but it looks so obvious. You know, if
22 somebody walks into Safeway and buys an Applebee's card,
23 they don't suddenly turn into -- Safeway doesn't
24 suddenly turn into a restaurant. They just got a card
25 that lets them go shopping at Applebee's and Applebee's
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 206
1 got -- got money from the -- the sale of the card to
2 cover the food that these people are going to be
3 demanding for -- on the basis of that transaction. I --
4 I can't give you all of these, you know, what is
5 contract or something or prove --
6 (Inaudible due to crosstalk.)
7 BY MR. EDWARDS:
8 Q. Did you research whether there's a legal
9 distinction between telephone service and airtime cards?
10 MS. SAND: Again, objection to the extent
11 that calls for a legal conclusion.
12 Go ahead and answer.
13 BY MR. EDWARDS:
14 Q. I'm asking whether you conducted any research.
15 A. I need a -- I need to leap in and see if you're
16 saying this. You're saying I need some kind of legal
17 basis.
18 Q. No, I'm asking you a question of whether you
19 engaged in the act of performing research.
20 A. I don't believe that one has to do research to
21 see that a plastic card and access to a telephone
22 communications network are not the same. I think that's
23 intuitively obvious.
24 Q. And then your -- the next statement here when it
25 says, "If it was," am I correct in understanding you
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 207
1 mean if the sale of an airtime card was the sale of
2 network telephone service, then Target would also owe
3 city utility taxes?
4 A. Yes, I considered that an argument from
5 absurdity. Nobody would charge Target for
6 telecommunications services in my opinion.
7 Q. I want to -- let's go back. Structurally you've
8 got TracFone objections lettered, so we've looked at
9 objection A, objection B. You've got your response
10 numbered. So we've looked at number 1. If we flip the
11 page, the numbers 2, 3 and 4 all continue -- continue to
12 be part of your response to -- to TracFone's objection
13 that the "sale for purpose of resale" provision
14 prohibits the imposition of city B&O tax on TracFone's
15 wholesale sales?
16 (Whereupon, Mr. Degginger leaves the proceedings.)
17 MS. SAND: You know, I object to the extent
18 that mischaracterizes the witness's prior testimony.
19 THE WITNESS: I also wasn't -- didn't listen
20 to that because I saw here --
21 BY MR. EDWARDS:
22 Q. Would you agree that objection B is an objection
23 that TracFone is not subject to city B&O tax on its
24 wholesale sales because they meet the exclusion for
25 service -- network telephone service that is purchased
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 208
1 for the purpose of resale? Do you understand that to be
2 TracFone's objection?
3 A. Okay. I'm going to need that again. Sorry.
4 Q. Do you understand -- or let me start -- is it
5 fair to characterize the objection that you identify in
6 section B as an objection that city utility tax is not
7 imposed on TracFone's sales to retailers because
8 TracFone's sales to retailers are charges for network
9 telephone service that is purchased for the purpose of
10 resale?
11 A. If I understand you correctly, I'll just kind of
12 repeat what you said, I believe that that was one of the
13 objections that Mr. Ford was fielding when he -- when he
14 focused on that part of the code. And... and I
15 responded saying that I didn't think he was right. So
16 as far as I understand your question, I think that's --
17 that's correct, that that's what TracFone was trying to
18 say when they said -- when they brought up that, yeah.
19 That's what the time and I still do.
20 Q. And if we look structurally at this document,
21 the -- the discussion under paragraph 1 and the
22 discussion that continues through the entirety of the
23 next page, the paragraphs numbered 2, 3 and 4, are
24 additional responses to that objection in B; is that
25 correct?
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 209
1 A. Yes, and that's what distracted me during the
2 first time you asked the previous question, because it
3 does say that at www.TracFone.com, in their terms and
4 conditions, they say: We may at any time, without prior
5 notice to you, modify, cancel, deactivate your service,
6 take corrective action, et cetera.
7 The relationship between TracFone and the
8 customer is very much lined out. When you get a card
9 and you activate that card, you're thrust into this
10 relationship with TracFone. All aspects of the service,
11 including plan rates, offering, features, functionality,
12 other product specifications are subject to change
13 without notice.
14 Q. Again, I -- you know, simply reading stuff
15 that's on the document is not responsive to my
16 questions.
17 A. It's what you asked.
18 Q. The question that I asked was a very simple
19 yes-or-no question, whether I've accurately described
20 the format and layout of this document.
21 A. Oh, yes. I was --
22 Q. Thank you.
23 (Inaudible due to crosstalk.)
24 THE WITNESS: I was answering the previous
25 question, not this one that you just asked. So that
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 210
1 answer --
2 BY MR. EDWARDS:
3 Q. You've answered the question. There's not a
4 question in front of you right now.
5 A. Okay.
6 Q. Structurally the indented parts under -- right
7 under paragraph 4 are simply a cut-and-paste of text
8 from the State Supreme Court opinion in the 911 -- E911
9 case?
10 A. Yeah, I believe so. Since I'm wondering, is
11 that Supreme Court opinion? I thought the Supreme Court
12 refused to hear that. I'm getting that mixed up with
13 another case. So, yeah, this is the TracFone versus
14 Washington.
15 Q. And let's move to the next page where it says C.
16 This is now a third possible objection?
17 A. Uh-huh.
18 Q. And this is a legal argument about how ambiguous
19 provisions in tax codes are dealt with?
20 A. Uh-huh. This is an exempt -- let's see, an
21 objection that TracFone made during TracFone versus DOR.
22 He -- they were saying it was ambiguous and the Court
23 came back and said -- you know, disagreed that the
24 ambiguity didn't help them be tax-free for their
25 activities.
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 211
1 Q. Let's move on to objection D where TracFone has
2 claimed that they do not have facilities in the city
3 area --
4 A. Uh-huh.
5 Q. -- and therefore are not a facilities-based
6 telephone business. What do you mean by "in the city
7 area"?
8 A. Well, actually that's probably not a good
9 characterization of -- of the claim. TracFone says that
10 they -- you know, Mr. Ford repeatedly say they're a
11 non-facilities-based company.
12 Q. What do you understand that statement to mean?
13 A. I -- I understood it to mean that Mr. Ford
14 believed that, because they didn't have facilities, that
15 they did not have to pay taxes to the City of Renton,
16 because the --
17 Q. I'm not asking what his legal argument was.
18 When he's -- I'm asking you when he made the statement
19 that TracFone is a non-facilities-based company,
20 factually what did you understand that phrase
21 "non-facilities-based" to mean?
22 A. I think it -- he was probably referring to the
23 fact that they use contractual relationships with the
24 sell -- the carriers instead of owning the towers
25 themselves and providing the -- and producing the
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 212
1 airtime, they contracted with others. And so it wasn't
2 their facilities that did the transmission, but rather
3 facilities that they contracted to to manage, to
4 operate, to provide access to, whatever.
5 Q. Well, let's -- you know, down near the bottom
6 you do set out the definition of telecommunications
7 company.
8 A. Okay.
9 Q. And you've highlighted part of it. It talks
10 about a company owning, operating or managing any
11 facilities used to provide telecommunications. And so
12 you -- and you've highlighted the "any facilities used
13 to provide telecommunications".
14 A. Uh-huh.
15 Q. Do you understand that to include things like
16 cellphone towers, cell towers?
17 A. I believe it does. They're the facilities used
18 to provide telecommunications, which is transmission of
19 tel- -- you know, of telephone services.
20 Q. Does TracFone own any cell towers?
21 A. No, they don't, but the previous --
22 Q. Does -- does TracFone operate any cell towers?
23 A. Now, that I think is a point of controversy,
24 because --
25 Q. Okay. Let's -- let's stop right there. Are you
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 213
1 asserting that factually TracFone operates cell towers?
2 A. Well, I believe that they are a mobile virtual
3 network operator. So that sounds like they're a
4 operator, but they say repeatedly they're not operators.
5 So it's not a yes or a no question. I would say yes;
6 TracFone would say no.
7 Q. What is the factual basis for asserting that
8 TracFone operates cell towers?
9 A. Well, it just depends on what you mean. It says
10 operating or managing.
11 Q. Well, I --
12 A. So --
13 Q. I only asked you about operating and you
14 asserted that your position was that yes, they do
15 operate. So I only want to focus on operating and your
16 assertion that TracFone operates cell towers. I'm
17 asking you again: What is the factual basis for your
18 assertion that TracFone operates cell towers?
19 A. My basis is my own understanding of the word
20 "operates". It may not be technically correct. But
21 when you are assigning that airtime to a certain
22 cellphone and making them able to use it, use the
23 airtime and -- and telling them when they can use it and
24 when they don't, you've -- you've done a business
25 contract for that airtime and you have control over it
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 214
1 to some extent or you wouldn't have signed the contract.
2 That's how I see it.
3 Now, maybe -- maybe someone else would -- would
4 say that that word "operates" is not right, but it's
5 confusing to me that you're a mobile virtual network
6 operator and you don't operate virtual networks. So --
7 Q. Do you have any reference anywhere in Exhibit 29
8 to mobile virtual network operators?
9 A. No. And this is not a definitive document.
10 It's not a all inclusive. It's not a legal brief. It's
11 just auditor's understanding.
12 Q. Let's move to the third phrase there,
13 "managing". Do you contend that TracFone manages cell
14 towers?
15 A. Once again, they... The word "facilities" is
16 the basis for my -- my... understanding of this. It's
17 found in the code. And I could read it to you, but I
18 think it -- the route of transmission is listed in
19 facilities definition in the code. And --
20 Q. So --
21 (Inaudible due to crosstalk.)
22 BY MR. EDWARDS:
23 Q. Are you --
24 A. You manage the airtime.
25 Q. Are you asserting that the word "facilities" is
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 215
1 defined in the Renton's utility code?
2 A. It's in the state one and it's referred to under
3 35A definitions. So I've gotten this so -- so many
4 things.
5 Q. I'm not asking you to look up definitions.
6 You're -- you're testifying that "facilities" is defined
7 somewhere in the statute?
8 A. Yes, it is.
9 Q. Okay.
10 And you relied on the statutory definition of
11 "facilities" in your analysis?
12 A. Actually I think I was not as sophisticated when
13 I wrote this as I am now. Studying for the deposition I
14 really started to understand this more in-depth. At the
15 time I really thought that your whatever... you know,
16 business -- I mean, facilities you had in -- that I keep
17 calling it "you" -- that your -- your client has in
18 Florida or any way that you send the transmission to
19 the... you know, to the telephones to tell them which
20 one to use, even the telephones were facilities to
21 provide the equipment, but -- I mean, the
22 telecommunications, but now I really believe that it all
23 comes down to control of the airtime. Maybe those
24 facilities do help you control the airtime, but you --
25 you have to ultimately be able to control, you know, the
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 216
1 transmission of information.
2 Q. Are you testifying that your opinion as an
3 auditor as to -- with respect to why TracFone meets the
4 statutory definition of a telecommunications company has
5 changed since the assessment was issued?
6 A. Right, the answer to the question has remained
7 the same.
8 Q. Yes-or-no question. I -- I'm not asking for an
9 explanation.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. I don't have a question in front of you. You've
12 already answered yes.
13 A. Uh-huh.
14 Q. Item number 2 you assert, "a facility can simply
15 be a structure." Do you see that? Very last line on
16 that third page?
17 A. There we go.
18 (Sotto voce comments.)
19 Q. 4 --
20 A. Yes, structure.
21 (Sotto voce comments.)
22 Q. Now, if we look to the next page, you have
23 definitions of "facility" and "structure" that appear to
24 be taken from an online businessdictionary.com website?
25 A. Right, because I hadn't found the statutory
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 217
1 definition as yet.
2 Q. And this last sentence on the page, "Even if
3 TracFone simply rents bandwidth..." Do you see that
4 sentence?
5 A. Uh-huh.
6 (Sotto voce comments.)
7 Q. So do you know whether TracFone rents bandwidth?
8 A. I understand now, I don't know if the word
9 "rents" is correct. I know they contract with and
10 bandwidth really [distorted audio] airtime or network
11 telephone services.
12 Q. Did Mr. Ashpaugh talk with you about what
13 renting bandwidth means in the telecommunications
14 industry?
15 A. No, I don't -- no, he didn't.
16 Q. So what's the basis of your change in
17 understanding about renting bandwidth?
18 A. Preparing for this deposition, I've gotten a lot
19 more acquainted with the -- with the statutes. I've
20 spent a lot of time that I didn't have available when I
21 was doing this audit. Trying to --
22 Q. Is there anything in the statutes that refers to
23 renting bandwidth?
24 A. No, that -- you know, I wouldn't have written
25 that today. My conclusions would have been the same,
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 218
1 but I wouldn't --
2 Q. You said that you've learned something about
3 renting bandwidth in preparing for --
4 (Inaudible due to crosstalk.)
5 THE WITNESS: No, I didn't. I didn't learn
6 something about bandwidth. I learned something about
7 the statutory definition of facilities. And I don't
8 know if Garth would agree with what I'm saying --
9 (laughter) -- or Kari. That's just -- I was -- I was
10 working through that trying to get ready for questions
11 such as this and realized that the definitions from the
12 statutes are what's going to apply, not the ones from
13 the Internet or the business dictionary.
14 BY MR. EDWARDS:
15 Q. And so you're -- and if I look at the last
16 paragraph here, paragraph 3 on the next page, am I
17 correct in my reading that as asserting that, because
18 TracFone is in the telephone business and has an office,
19 they therefore meet the definition of telecommunications
20 company?
21 A. I want to say that my current opinion is
22 different than this right now. I think that it's --
23 it's your managing of the bandwidth that makes you --
24 their managing of the bandwidth.
25 Q. Again my question was not about your current
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 219
1 opinion. My question is -- was about what that
2 paragraph number 3 says. Am I reading it correctly and
3 understanding it to say that because you concluded that
4 TracFone is in the telephone business, and they have an
5 office, that causes them to fall within the statutory
6 definition of a telecommunications company?
7 A. Yes, and I believe that's what I meant at the
8 time.
9 Q. But you no longer believe that?
10 A. You know what, I believe that the legal experts
11 that -- in this case will have to make that
12 determination. I'm an auditor. I was satisfied with
13 both of these answers because they come to the same
14 conclusion, that TracFone is a tel- -- telephone company
15 and they provide access to a network telephone service.
16 Q. Let's -- what is your understanding -- and I
17 guess let's go back to the first page of Exhibit 29.
18 MS. SAND: Are we walking -- are we walking
19 over ground we've already covered? I mean, I'm noting
20 that --
21 (Inaudible due to crosstalk.)
22 MR. EDWARDS: I -- Kari, I -- no, we are not
23 walking over ground that we've already covered, but we
24 are getting to something that I've been working towards
25 for, what, seven, eight hours now.
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 220
1 THE WITNESS: Okay. Looks like 29's open,
2 empty. What -- what was --
3 BY MR. EDWARDS:
4 Q. That's the document we've been talking about for
5 the last 45 minutes.
6 A. The Renton outline.
7 Q. The Renton outline.
8 A. Okay.
9 Q. Access to the local telephone network. And you
10 observed earlier that the phrase says "the local
11 telephone network".
12 A. Uh-huh.
13 Q. So what is your understanding of what the
14 business of providing access to the local telephone
15 network is?
16 A. Well, I'm surprised that the word "the" as if
17 there's only one telephone network. If you could call
18 multiple telephone network services all operating in
19 Renton as a conglomerate telephone network, then that --
20 that phrase would make sense. So I -- I -- that's the
21 only way I can make sense of it is they're saying, you
22 know, there's one conglomerate of all these telephone
23 networks operating and being made use of by the -- the
24 Renton -- you know, people who live inside the city of
25 Renton, so...
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 221
1 Q. Is there a difference between a local telephone
2 network and a long-distance telephone network?
3 A. Well, that seems to me sort of a flip on -- the
4 word "local" means it actually is in that area. But if
5 you talk about long-distance network, then now all of a
6 sudden you're characterizing whether or not that local
7 telephone network is able to facilitate a long-distance
8 call. I would say that the local telephone network can
9 facilitate a long-distance call or a local call, even
10 international call, but it's still local. Like I say,
11 this is not my area of expertise.
12 Q. So you don't know whether there's a difference
13 between a local telephone network and a long-distance
14 telephone network?
15 A. Oh, I think they're all long-distance telephone
16 networks. I mean you can --
17 (Inaudible due to crosstalk.)
18 THE WITNESS: -- call from any of them.
19 We spoke over each other. I said you can
20 make a long-distance telephone call from any telephone
21 network service that you're hooked up to these days,
22 there's no -- none of them that are only local. So that
23 word "local" must mean the ones that are available in
24 this area.
25 As you know, if we get outside of TracFone's
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 222
1 networks, you can't make a call at all on a -- on a
2 TracFone telephone. If they haven't contracted locally,
3 the customer can't make a call.
4 BY MR. EDWARDS:
5 Q. What do you mean by "contracted locally"?
6 A. They have to make a business agreement with the
7 providers of network telephone services of that area or
8 it's a dead spot for TracFone.
9 Q. And what area are you referring to?
10 A. Whatever area isn't served by -- by one of
11 TracFone's carriers. The contract isn't valid, the
12 customer cannot make a phone call. That's on your
13 web -- on their website. Fabulous as their network is,
14 they can't do it in a dead spot.
15 MS. SAND: Are we nearing the end,
16 Mr. Edwards?
17 MR. EDWARDS: I'm not sure. I'm certainly
18 cutting out quite a few things that I had intended to
19 ask about.
20 BY MR. EDWARDS:
21 Q. Let's move to Exhibit 30 at this point.
22 A. Okay.
23 (Reviews exhibit.)
24 Q. Do you have that in front of you? And it's
25 Bates number 722.
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 223
1 A. Uh-huh. I do.
2 Q. Okay.
3 Is the court case referred to here the
4 Springfield, Missouri, city utility tax case?
5 A. Once again, it's Mike that was in on these court
6 cases. I -- I really can't give you good information,
7 but I know -- I believe the only ones that he was
8 following were in Missouri, but I don't remember which
9 one.
10 Q. Wasn't the outcome of the Missouri case that the
11 Court concluded that TracFone was not subject to local
12 utility tax on its wholesale sales?
13 MS. SAND: Objection to the extent it calls
14 for a legal conclusion.
15 You can go ahead and answer if you know.
16 THE WITNESS: I don't really understand the
17 outcome of that. The -- I believe it was a sales tax
18 issue, which is not analogous. They were similar. They
19 weren't the same thing. They also -- their code was
20 very different than Renton.
21 BY MR. EDWARDS:
22 Q. Did you conduct an analysis of the differences
23 between the Springfield code and the Renton code?
24 A. No, I really haven't. I'd need some time to do
25 that because I'm not a lawyer. I'm not necessarily good
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 224
1 at reading briefs or understanding.
2 Q. So what was the foundation for your assertion
3 that the codes are very different if you didn't compare
4 them?
5 A. Just cursory things. I thought I skimmed over
6 it and I thought I saw that they were talking sales tax,
7 and they were quoting a definition of MTSA which I
8 didn't think applied. I was thinking, wow, you know,
9 Renton must be much better at pinning down what a
10 telephone company is, because why would they go to the
11 MTSA if it wasn't in their code.
12 Those are some things that went through my head,
13 but I certainly can't do a good job explaining to you.
14 I know, you know, maybe Kari can or maybe even Garth,
15 but, I mean, I'm not up to that.
16 Q. Let's move to Exhibit 36.
17 A. Oh, I made a total mess of these. I was trying
18 to stay so clean. All right.
19 Q. Do you have Exhibit 36 in front of you?
20 A. It's 735?
21 Q. Yep.
22 A. Okay. We're good then.
23 Q. This is dated December 28th of 2018?
24 A. '18; okay.
25 Q. It's transmitting TRS's recommendation to Renton
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 225
1 regarding the TracFone assessment?
2 A. Uh-huh.
3 Q. Attached is a recommendation. It's two pages
4 long. Who was the author of that recommendation? Was
5 that you or Mr. Crisp?
6 A. (Reviews exhibit.)
7 I -- I'm not sure. I mean, I -- it talks about
8 Springfield case, so I was going to say -- oh, this is
9 Mr. Crisp's work. This one.
10 Q. Mr. Crisp at his deposition told me I needed to
11 ask you about it.
12 A. About this?
13 Q. Yeah.
14 A. Okay. Give me some time to read this; all
15 right? Because I -- I don't remember analyzing
16 [distorted audio] together.
17 (Reviews exhibit.)
18 MS. SAND: Mr. Edwards, I have a hard stop
19 because I've got a council meeting at 5:30.
20 MR. EDWARDS: Okay. I'm -- we're going to
21 need to continue this to another -- or we may need to
22 continue this in any event. All of the various emails
23 that I understand have not yet been produced to us
24 that -- that are not going to be produced for another
25 two or three weeks, since I don't know what's in them, I
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 226
1 don't know whether or not there's going to be materials
2 in there that I would want to ask Mrs. Crisp about that,
3 based on her characterization of them, it sounds to me
4 like it's very likely that that is going to be the case.
5 And obviously I'm at the disadvantage now of simply
6 not -- not having them available.
7 THE WITNESS: So you didn't get them from
8 TracFone?
9 BY MR. EDWARDS:
10 Q. The City has an obligation to produce to us the
11 entire audit file so that we can understand what you
12 did. What I do or don't have and how I did or didn't
13 get it is completely independent of your obligation to
14 have produced documents that have not been produced.
15 And I think your testimony repeatedly today,
16 including refusing to answer questions about a number of
17 the documents that I do have, make it that much more
18 important to focus on documents that you actually
19 produce so that I know I'm going to get an answer about
20 them instead of being told you can't talk about them.
21 MR. EDWARDS: And so, you know, if you'd
22 like, Kari, we can call it for today and schedule the
23 continuation for some point in time after those
24 documents have been produced.
25 MS. SAND: I think we should do that given
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 227
1 the late hour and the fact that whether we get through
2 the exhibits, you know, including this one you're asking
3 about, number 36, there's going to be likely more emails
4 forthcoming that you're going to want to ask about, so
5 it just makes sense to stop now and continue later.
6 MR. EDWARDS: Okay. So we'll -- we'll stop
7 at this point. The deposition is not concluded, but
8 we'll be resuming at a later date to be determined after
9 those additional documents have been produced.
10 THE REPORTER: Are you ordering the
11 transcript?
12 MR. EDWARDS: Yes, please.
13 THE REPORTER: Copy of the transcript?
14 MS. SAND: I'm going to reserve for now, get
15 back to you.
16 (Deposition concluded at 5:02 p.m.)
17 (Signature reserved.)
18
19 -o0o-
20
21
22
23
24
25
In Re: TracFone Wireless, Inc.Tamara Crisp
206.287.9066 l 800.846.6989
BUELL REALTIME REPORTING, LLC
ef5a29b9-594e-44f6-bbb6-34dc74c0877c
Page 228
1 C E R T I F I C A T E
2
3 STATE OF WASHINGTON
4 COUNTY OF KING
5
6 I, Kathleen Hamilton, a Certified Shorthand
7 Reporter and Notary Public in and for the State of
8 Washington, do hereby certify that the foregoing
9 transcript of the deposition of TAMARA CRISP, having
10 been duly sworn, on NOVEMBER 17, 2020, is true and
11 accurate to the best of my knowledge, skill and ability.
12 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand
13 and seal this 25th day of NOVEMBER, 2020.
14
15
16 ______________________________________
17 KATHLEEN HAMILTON, RPR, CRR, CCR #1917
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25